Every time I ban a cheater, I get stuck in an email conversation where they either

a) lie and say they didn't cheat.
b) acknowledge they cheated but want a second chance.

I used to give second chances, but the rate of re-offense was so high I have stopped doing so. For what it's worth, I already have ideas on how to handle this, but I'd like to get your opinions as well. Keep in mind that in the case of permanent ban, it is hard to enforce as people can make multis.

Vote and discuss.

Permanent ban should be enough for real cheaters....

I voted for score reset, disable submission, but leave access. Perhaps it would be wise to block creation from their IP/MAC address in addition to that.

Well I don't understand how they could say they didn't cheat, I mean how do you accidentally cheat??

-.-

lol last option is actually good

here's the catch
if you do find a cheater in which case 100% sure he has cheated, it's usually nice to give a second chance, but it's a sure way to abuse such
if i say perma-ban, then multiing would be their action. As for the third option I believe they'll just multi again.
What's the use of cheating to get a high score if you can't show it to anyone?
I propose a 4th option of both Perma-ban and IP ban or something like that. Point is we have to find a way around the multi loophole.



*EDIT: voted for permaban though, but we still need to find a way around the multi problem

I used to think if they it they cheated and apologized they should be given a second chance, but I wont even say that these days.

Cheating isn't a gray area, the person doing it obviously knows they are breaking the rules. If they choose to cheat and ruin the fun of everyone else playing, I see no reason to give them another chance or let them stay in the community . So voting for permanent ban.

Multi-s do add a very big problem but hopefully a more advanced system can be put in place in the future to counter that...(not saying I have any good ideas for that though)

Osu Tatakae Ouendan wrote: 97v

both Perma-ban and IP ban or something like that

Won't work - proxy.

I voted perm ban, by the way. No mercy for sandrakers.

.

Soly wrote: 1z3ce

Permanent banana. No exceptions.

permanent ban, we cant do anything against re-ing anyway

MAC ban is enough I think, people will have to buy a whole new PC to continue cheating, which is very fund-draining, and they won't be brave to cheat anymore. \o/

(Voted for permanent ban)

IP ban is too harsh,I don't like it whenever it may affect the others just because of one's action.I voted for permanent ban.

Jalatiphra wrote: 5p554d

permanent ban, we cant do anything against re-ing anyway

Those who kept re-ing will surely get tired of it and stop because it is not worth their time.Seriously unless that guy is a NEET and have too much free time...

I'd say permaban, but from what i saw, they -always- make a second acc (and keep doing the same thing). So it's better reset scores, imo.

But if you disable submission it will be the same as banning the acc - they'll make another.

Bittersweet wrote: 4cd6i

I'd say permaban, but from what i saw, they -always- make a second acc (and keep doing the same thing). So it's better reset scores, imo.

But if you disable submission it will be the same as banning the acc - they'll make another.

Yeah. That was why I voted for resetting the score. I'm actually more for the permaban but I'm pretty sure it is useless.

Soly wrote: 1z3ce

Permanent banana. No exceptions.

Voted "Score reset, disable submission, but leave access".

While you can always multi-, it looks different after permanent ban and disable .
- after permaban it looks like cheater is so smart that he fooled protection system (e-pen gained, cheater be hatin' more)
- disable can't be byed so new looks like cheater can't beat developers he/she hates so much (no e-pen gained)

And disabled data can be utilized in the future I guess (?).

When I am talking " access", I mean letting the to chat/forums. We still keep access to the and have all relevant data, so it wouldn't change how easy it is to track people.

Permaban =).

Getting rid of the cheating should be a given but then it is hard to track the if you do give a 2nd chance.
I'd go with the 2nd choice but maybe instead wipe score and give them one more chance to play while submitting scores.
But for now I'd stick with giving a 2nd chance with a new possibly link that there old was such and such if possible?

Wipe their score and disable their submission, but let them keep the . I am aware they can still create a new and start from scratch just as if we banned them altogether, but on principle I'd prefer to punish the offense itself, rather than the offender.

That message (it's not you we don't like, it's what you did) will probably be lost on most cheaters though. Oh well.

i think people who cheated on secundary s should also have second chances..

so allow all the multis and all the cheaters? :p

peppy wrote: 115z70

so allow all the multis and all the cheaters? :p

Works for me :p
/runs

On a more serious note I think perma-ban is the best option, it may not be foolproof but it shows that we actually care

lunah also cheated and made a multi linked to the old one, why isn't this option available to everyone?

Second chance. Thats your 453th , asdasdasd654456

I was always thinking that preventing cheating is more important and useful than ways to ban them
Well, anyway. I voted for permaban

Bittersweet wrote: 4cd6i

Second chance. Thats your 453th , asdasdasd654456

im talking acount getting permanent banned for secundary cheating. No second chances? second chances are only to main cheaters right? that's so fair..

Option 3:
Also all of their forum posts, their complete profile and all of the cheaters beatmaps are deleted. They should also be marked in both the online list in game and their profile as a cheater so everyone will see it, and it should be so noticeable that you can not miss it. Also they should be silenced forever in any chat room and private messages. That is a very good punishment for cheaters, just let them be online and enjoy their shamefull existance and let them at least play without taking part in the community ever again in any way. This should also be applied for any other they had before they got banned and also every new one they will create. And they should never again be able to post on the forums! Or make a subforum where only cheaters are allowed to post and let them cry with each other for the rest of their life

asdasdasd654456 wrote: z5i2s

Bittersweet wrote: 4cd6i

Second chance. Thats your 453th , asdasdasd654456

im talking acount getting permanent banned for secundary cheating. No second chances? second chances are only to main cheaters right? that's so fair..

Hm, i don't think so. I recall you getting banned and then getting back with your original . That was your second chance. If you kept cheating after that you're just stupid and should get permabans in every acc.

Bittersweet wrote: 4cd6i

Hm, i don't think so. I recall you getting banned and then getting back with your original . That was your second chance. If you kept cheating after that you're just stupid and should get permabans in every acc.

my first ban wasn't even fair.. some player called nautic started trolling around and then i got banned. i never got a second chance for cheating

Guys, please keep this thread on topic.

Ban them all. They destroy game's atmosphere so badly...

Problem: cheaters submit scores that they do not deserve.
Solution: prevent them from submitting new scores.

This lets them keep their old . If you have a good way of tracking multi s, you can use that information to then ban new s. Keep in mind that anyone who picks up the game and is immediately awesome at it is either a multi-er or cheating. You can lump multi-s into "cheating".

you can't stop someone smart from making a 2nd and making no reference to their previous . I'm also pretty sure nobody has ever done this before.

asdasdasd654456 wrote: z5i2s

i never got a second chance for cheating

so you're gonna cheat again? wat

Voted for option 1:

People who once cheated are highly likely to cheat again, giving a second chance as you said peppy, may lead to that who wasted your time lying to you/insisting for a second chance making you waste your time again (or you could even say that guy is insulting you).

Then again, a permanent ban makes you lose your "public ID" and your friend list. To be honest if I ever got banned what I'd suffer the most isn't the lost of my stats/score, but the fact I got to start out again as a random not being able to say publicly who I am. Not having a second chance to play even if some day I feel like getting some top scores and stuff, since I know the moment anyone from the staff ends up knowing who I really am I gonna lose them.

Option 2:

Lol, this is basically "you can go cheat do whatever you want, you gonna get 999 chances if you say you're sorry!". The worst out of those 3.

Option 3:

Sounds cool, but I still prefer 3 since it's kind of the same than this but harsher. On this idea you basically "ban him" from the game but the guy can still post and stuff, if he ever wanna play he can do a multi and that's all...

what? no. i want a second chance because i cheated on other s and my main it's completely legit. cheating again is not my target

Wishy22 wrote: 691a5u

Option 3:

Sounds cool, but I still prefer 3 since it's kind of the same than this but harsher. On this idea you basically "ban him" from the game but the guy can still post and stuff, if he ever wanna play he can do a multi and that's all...

If I understand this correctly, they can still play the game as well. They just no longer play the game with any form of online recognition. When osu dies, everyone will be on option 3.

asdasdasd654456 wrote: z5i2s

what? no. i want a second chance because i cheated on other s and my main it's completely legit. cheating again is not my target

The point is that you're not allowed to cheat on any .

He shouldn't even be allowed to have multis imo.

y but lunah can have a new one right?

ztrot wrote: x6k62

I'd go with the 2nd choice but maybe instead wipe score and give them one more chance to play while submitting scores.
But for now I'd stick with giving a 2nd chance with a new possibly link that there old was such and such if possible?

My thoughts exactly o:

@ziin

It's kind of the same thing, if that guy ever wants to play online again all he has to do is make another ... and even if you can "pursue him" using his IP or anything, you still can't prove it's really him player, and then again if he changes his IP and then starts using another you can prove nothing.

The main issue are MULTI S, that problem comes from the fact that s are worth pretty much NOTHING. Even if you get yourself banned all you got to do is make another and that's it, obviously cheaters don't really care about getting banned/losing their scores (since they cheated them lol). I think this would be solved with some cool ladder system/good ranking system where rank actually means something.

voted perma-ban TAKE NO PRISONERS!

More importantly, is there really no way to prevent multis? :/

Wishy22 wrote: 691a5u

@ziin

It's kind of the same thing, if that guy ever wants to play online again all he has to do is make another ... and even if you can "pursue him" using his IP or anything, you still can't prove it's really him player, and then again if he changes his IP and then starts using another you can prove nothing.

The main issue are MULTI S, that problem comes from the fact that s are worth pretty much NOTHING. Even if you get yourself banned all you got to do is make another and that's it, obviously cheaters don't really care about getting banned/losing their scores (since they cheated them lol). I think this would be solved with some cool ladder system/good ranking system where rank actually means something.

Player A's 1 is banned.
Player A gets new IP.
Player A makes new 2, never logs onto banned 1.
No way to match 2 with 1.

Player A's 1 gets suspended.
Player A gets new IP.
Player A makes new 2, occasionally logs onto suspended 1 with new IP.
We now have a link between new 2 and suspended 1, and can act appropriately. Furthermore, 2 will likely be SSing insane songs on day 1, which is not humanly possible. Banning new s should not be a difficult process, so long as there is an explanation as to why the was banned (in this case, the player is way too good to be new).

IP matching is used to find multi s on another forum I moderate, and is not foolproof (siblings on same IP, ISP re-uses old IP). By using such a system as well as comparing relative skill levels of the two s, it should be a simple (though tedious) process to determine multi-s.

The other problem is that a lot of the high profile cheaters didn't really cheat their way up to being that good, they did it in order to see if they could get away with it/get banned because they don't like the community anymore.

asdasdasd654456 wrote: z5i2s

what? no. i want a second chance because i cheated on other s and my main it's completely legit. cheating again is not my target

also, this person's should just be straight up banned right now, no questions asked.

Voted option 3 since scores and community are, to me, unrelated.

vote 1 cuz people can go to top of leaderboards not making osu a game anymore

If nothing else, then a score reset would probably be the safest option. Even better, this should be undoable, in case it turns out that the player wasn't cheating. If a player cheats, then a simple score reset would enable them to stay in touch with the community.

well that defeats the point its for cheaters
and hackers can hack u via internet do u want that huh do u want them to steal ur info and all that?

halo398: please use the edit button instead of posting again in a row, specially when you add something just like a minute after

Option 4: Send ninjas.

Mr Color wrote: g56l

Voted option 3 since scores and community are, to me, unrelated.

Maybe so, but I don't see how anyone can cheat and still want the best for the community.
The only good it might do to let them talk on their existing is if it stops them from creating multis and cheating again. It might be worth a try as an experiment to see if this is the case, but I doubt.

You can cheat once then feel guilty and/or stupid about it and decide to redeem yourself by actively participating in the community, in my opinion. Granted, that's a rare case, but I think people who just want to cheat would leave by their own once they see that their scores have been reseted and that they can't submit new ones anymore.
It would also raise the problem of double s, but the other options don't fare better against this issue, so...
I still think it's the best option because we do give kind of a second chance to the cheater (being able to enjoy the chat, forums and whatnot) without being too lenient and actually encourage cheating rather than dissuading it.

When I was younger, hacking an online video game was something that crossed my mind. I never did but I did do exploits that were border line. At this time, I now have ethics that prevent me from ever doing such a thing. My point is this game and young base has those who haven't nailed down a sense of ethics. And concerning the cheaters, after giving them some time to think about their actions, a second chance would probably be best after the ban really informs them of the harsh consequences of cheating. But, for the osu! community at large, a permanent ban is best. You do work on the site and the game. Taking attention off of these single persons who might not learn from their ban, which as you state is highly the case, would give you more time to serve the community as a whole. Putting the needs of the many over the few, Lesser of two evils, etc.

Perm ban.

I just don't understand why people who cheated on their main like Lunah can have a new and others who NEVER cheated on their main can't play osu anymore. Can someone explain me?

Giving second chances is reasonable, but banning from score submit and from chat/forums should be kept linked.

Edit: @coco: Multis are meaningless when it comes to that. Lunah was plain given a second chance.

why can't i have one? I already agreed to reset my main even being legit, thats only for main cheaters right? I sereasly ask peppy to check my case again..

Once again, please do not use this thread to plead individual cases. There are other, known ways to do that.

I go with the first option; Once a cheater, always a cheater P: The saying dose not have to go for just relationships >.> lol

permaban, unless they only did it like one time (and you know that somehow), and even then only if they seem actually sorry enough.

i got into troubles for ing players that are accused of cheating .
I am getting my head around the fact that not much can be done.
If some one cheats- they are the ones that are cheating to them selves so over time I am learning to just not care if some one is cheating or not.

How about permaban + public announcement/humiliation of said cheater lol, cheater list thread!

YodaSnipe wrote: 6nx5h

How about permaban + public announcement/humiliation of said cheater lol, cheater list thread!

No because the cheaters won't care. Anyone who cheats won't use an ID in which they care to have defamed. Probably a multi.

Score reset, disable submission, but leave access
and
Give a second chance (new )
should be put together and be the indicator for a permanent ban if the player do so again.

YodaSnipe wrote: 6nx5h

How about permaban + public announcement/humiliation of said cheater lol, cheater list thread!

that's actually what cheaters want

case 1 & 3:
even if ban is completely automated, e-mail by banned will let peppy spend time for inspection.

case 2:
worst because it cost more time than other.

So, problem is how to manage e-mail/pm from s who cry liike "I am not cheater, recover my " or something like that.
One solution is ignore whole pm from banned .
I don't think we need to care petition from cheater whom peppy identified 100%.

so I 3 + (irc!) // ignore whole pm/mail about petition for ban.

We need to talk about cheater ~99%(by peppy), but that should be in another thread.

I can imagine an accidental permaban on an innocent player. That's happened to me before on plenty of multiplayer games, especially the ones with huge amounts of players and the security team or whoever doesn't get to my complaint for a year...

Minty Gum wrote: 2z5s4v

I can imagine an accidental permaban on an innocent player. That's happened to me before on plenty of multiplayer games...

peppy knows what he's doing, so an innocent player won't get banned for cheating.

I would go with complete score wipe. Also asdf, cheating is cheating no matter which did it.

GigaClon wrote: l6e26

I would go with complete score wipe. Also asdf, cheating is cheating no matter which did it.

of corse but (again) lunah can blablabla others can too blablabla

asdasdasd654456 wrote: z5i2s

of corse but (again) lunah can blablabla others can too blablabla

of course, but again this is talking about new guidelines.

asdasdasd654456 wrote: z5i2s

that's actually what cheaters want

What cheaters want is attention. All this "second chance" crap is attention they don't deserve. Ban attention is enough to minimize damage at low time cost. There is no way to deal with cheaters without giving them attention, other than automating the system (which is insecure).

Just change your s on your s to jibberish that you won't , get a new throwaway email, change your IP address and get a new identity. This is impossible to stop. Why are people so attached to an online identity anyway?

How about just not give a shit lol. If they cheat and wanna come back its not hard to make another . Your never gonna stop cheaters.

asdasdasd654456 wrote: z5i2s

why can't i have one? I already agreed to reset my main even being legit, thats only for main cheaters right? I sereasly ask peppy to check my case again..

may i say that you're missing the point. it's not the , it's the person. even if you kept one legit and didn't cheat you still cheated on another .

Sakura Hana wrote: 4x612d

The point is that you're not allowed to cheat on any .

^

ziin wrote: u6yr

that's actually what cheaters want
What cheaters want is attention. All this "second chance" crap is attention they don't deserve. Ban attention is enough to minimize damage at low time cost. There is no way to deal with cheaters without giving them attention, other than automating the system (which is insecure).

Just change your s on your s to jibberish that you won't , get a new throwaway email, change your IP address and get a new identity. This is impossible to stop. Why are people so attached to an online identity anyway?

the online identity part i don't know.
as for cheaters, they want one of two things
1. the easy way to something hard, cause they're lazy to get better
2. the easy way to something hard, but this time because they wanna show off and or troll those who can't do it
most likely the second choice. i don't see that many cheaters anymore who do the first choice, or it could just be me
As for limiting the attention they get when they get banned or something, that's too hard. One point or the other the truth will slip out.

SilentKiller wrote: n3s1c

How about just not give a shit lol. If they cheat and wanna come back its not hard to make another . Your never gonna stop cheaters.

True. we can't stop them. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try though, what, are we just gonna let them go around being unfair to the other players?

peppy wrote: 115z70

When I am talking " access", I mean letting the to chat/forums. We still keep access to the and have all relevant data, so it wouldn't change how easy it is to track people.

Ok. in theory, option 3 works, but again, they'll just multi. as i said earlier, cheaters want attention. And although being able to go get a score using a cheat while in their , they can't really show it off and get attention, either no one would pay attention to him since his score isn't submitted anyway, or becasue they know he cheated. cheaters might multi again to get around this.

Permanent Ban ~ ( plus score reset @@ )

depends on the cheating
i think people that use spin macro or have a really low amount of hacked scores should get their s reset, but banned if they do it again.
i think people that hack (autoplay, memory, flashlight, etc.) should have reset scores, and unable to submit scores (or permanently banned if they stop g in).
i know several people that have cheated in the past but stopped doing it too, that's an issue as well...

XK2238 wrote: 2l3sv

MAC ban is enough I think, people will have to buy a whole new PC to continue cheating, which is very fund-draining, and they won't be brave to cheat anymore. \o/

(Voted for permanent ban)

mac spoofing is beyond easy

a simple google search yields this

palion wrote: 101x6r

XK2238 wrote: 2l3sv

MAC ban is enough I think, people will have to buy a whole new PC to continue cheating, which is very fund-draining, and they won't be brave to cheat anymore. \o/

(Voted for permanent ban)

mac spoofing is beyond easy

I was about to say this, but I just had to read the whole thread before posting. Good thing I'm not the only one.

Imagine what would happen if the cheater accidentally used your MAC address...

On-topic: I'm having difficulties on choosing between option 1 and 3. Option 1 may be a bit too harsh, but then again Option 3 can be a bit too forgiving as well. (Voted Option 3 anyway)

I would like to see that if the cheater is found, perma-ban it right away. But depending on how they do the appeal (strictly via e-mail), we can then go for Option 3 for a month and keep logging their activity without touching the online scoreboard. They can enter online feature again after a month (or whatever duration as you wish) of restrictions. But if they found to be cheating again anytime (even after they're free from the restrictions), perma-ban without anymore mercy.

This method can be effective, only if we can find a way to prevent multi-s s. Unfortunately, I can't see any plausible method for this...

(I'm also hoping that peppy can find a way to detect Flashlight cheatings. Perhaps with some unique algorithms applied to the Flashlight mod)

Your router hides your MAC id. The IP that shows up can also be any one of X computers under that network. In my opinion score reset on strike 1 and perma-ban on strike 2 is the way to go.

aka. giving everyone the chance to try cheating once? sounds like an easy way for things to get out of control.

I think if any bannable offence happened only once in the past, a should receive fair warning of consequences if they keep such behaviour (+ delete the record of score gained by foul play). If then they decide to continue, permament ban without possibility to appeal (or whatever you choose).

If said cheated multiple times, instant perm should be applied.
An additional line mentioning this in the main menu could also be added.

Get the ip, go to their homes and kill them, after that expose his/her corpse on uppy!..................wait!

Nah!, screw them all; permanent bann, no exceptions.

I was thinking of the second chance but if it happens once, could happen again. So no.

Erase the score sounds nice but not energic enough.

There is a way to get the ip and post it no matter is the actual ip or a spoof?. Like, sending a message.

i think osu! should have a antihacking system...... like other online games.....

Score reset, disable submission, but leave access.
Also,

Winshley wrote: n2l6t

(I'm also hoping that peppy can find a way to detect Flashlight cheatings. )

Winshley wrote: n2l6t

(I'm also hoping that peppy can find a way to detect Flashlight cheatings. Perhaps with some unique algorithms applied to the Flashlight mod)

navy0333 wrote: 2585r

i think osu! should have a antihacking system...... like other online games.....

It does. The fact you don't know it's there means it's doing a good job; it should not interfere with normal s at all.