edit: this was unnecessarily inflammatory-inconsistent and I apologize to everyone so i'll re-write this to smth a bit more coherent (btw not even in the first was my intention to attack nat but to expose those problems of inconsistent knowledge - obviously not in this one either, but the idea is to maintain that argument to a certain extent) (another thing is that I wrote it very badly and it was understood as if it were a super rule but it would be nothing more than a -guideline- for discussions and other systems-bng,app,vetoes)

THE LOST BATTLE y126d

The issue of objectivity—and the pursuit of it—even when we acknowledge its impossibility, often leads to a denialist attitude toward mapping and modding. Claiming that objectivity doesn’t exist does not eliminate the need for structured analysis. When your body hurts, you can argue all you want that pain is subjective, but that won’t change the reality of your suffering. Similarly, dismissing the pursuit of objectivity in modding does not invalidate the existence of consistent patterns, logical frameworks, and shared methodologies that enhance understanding.

A framework is not about achieving absolute objectivity but about establishing a unified, specialized language of knowledge. Just as people speak different languages but require a common one to communicate effectively, mapping and modding need a structured vocabulary to facilitate useful and coherent discussions.

Rules are often perceived as objective simply because they are explicitly stated, but this does not inherently make them more objective than guidelines. Both exist within a framework designed to create consistency, not to claim an absolute truth.

A FEASIBLE BATTLE 2t5q28

Now that we've eliminated the lost battle from the equation, it is essential to demonstrate why we need better guidelines.

To fully express this point, we must first understand why "quality limits" in the system are necessary. A common response to criticism of the current mapping and ranking system is:

"Why don’t you just play the maps you like and ignore the ones you don’t?"

While this may seem reasonable from a player’s perspective, it overlooks a systemic issue within the Beatmap Nominators Group (BNG) and the ranking process.

The ranking and BN application systems have reached a level of incoherence that is catastrophic for the modding environment. This issue is explicitly addressed in the Malphs and Basensorex proposal, where they argue that quality standards have declined while simultaneously advocating for lowering the skill requirements for BNG applicants.

If we remove all quality standards for "subjective" issues, then the system ceases to have any meaningful function and becomes an instrument of arbitrariness and favoritism. This problem is clearly demonstrated by Dada’s veto, where many argued that the veto only happened because the map was a "pp map." This claim holds some truth, considering that equally flawed or worse maps have been ranked without issue. This reveals a double standard—certain maps are tolerated despite clear flaws, while others are blocked based on inconsistent criteria.

Another example is the BN Mentorship Program, where NAT help inexperienced modders become BNs. While mentorship is valuable for knowledge-sharing, the problem is that this knowledge is built on nothing formal. The modding and ranking system is entirely experiential, lacking official documentation or structured learning materials. This has created a dangerous elitist perception of the BNG and, more often, the NAT. Even if we think that all nats act for good reasons and true interest in the game.

I dare say that most players perceive NATs as pushing their own ideas without a formal knowledge base. It is unethical and illogical to allow an unstructured system to define quality standards. Worse, by teaching new BNs within this same lack of framework, the mentorship program reinforces the problem rather than solving it, producing individuals with the same flawed perspective, making the system even more resistant to change. Whether it's true or not, the perception of reality is important (like when people think crime has increased but the statistics haven't changed at all).

THE BN APPLICATION PROBLEM 4f5a52

To become a Beatmap Nominator, you must demonstrate an understanding of what makes a map good or bad. However, osu!'s mapping and modding scene lacks a clear theoretical foundation, making it difficult to determine objective criteria for quality. The osu! wiki provides guidelines for BNG applicants, but many of the required traits are vague and undefined:
What is mapping quality?
What means to improve a beatmap?
What are mapping fundamentals?
Respect the mapper’s style, but what if the concept of the map is flawed? What’s a mapping style?
How do you determine the experience of a mapper, by how many maps they have or only ranked maps?

For someone new, reading this is just like giving up right away. Having to enter a dogmatic niche that does not even have a clear source of knowledge. Continuing the previous point about the mentoring program. This is a fundamental educational problem. Candidates need information that simply isn't written anywhere or is extremely hard to find. Furthermore, people are starting to see the problems with the “BN Mentorship” which, while a good idea, clearly introduces some new problems due to inconsistencies within the system.

THE EXPERIENCE BIAS 5e3n6u

In the osu! community, there's a tendency to look at the year an was created, especially in modding, as confirmation bias to invalidate criticism. I'm not sure if this is a common thing among players, but among mappers and modders it's quite common to find people doing this.

The longer someone has been in the community, the more weight their words carry, sometimes regardless of the validity of their reasoning. While experience is valuable, this belief often discourages newer players from contributing meaningful insights. As a result, mapping knowledge remains niche and elitist, making it unnecessarily difficult for newcomers to "improve" and the BNG. So, again, this is a fundamental educational problem because the system was not designed to encourage theoretical understanding, making it very illogical for people to think that BN app is some kind of way to gain knowledge when in reality it's no better than asking a stranger for advice.

THE PROBLEM FROM THE PLAYERS' PERSPECTIVE 5k6b66

Using for context this Basensorex’s video about the pp mapping paradigm.

This mapping-modding theory shift should ideally be accompanied by a change in how players perceive maps. The concept of "pp farming" is highly contentious, yet it persists because the current system incentivizes viewing maps as mere tools for gaining pp.

The ranked section plays a crucial role in shaping these perceptions. Maps that consistently appear there—especially those that prioritize simplicity and intuitive patterns over complexity—set a precedent for what is considered acceptable, or even desirable, in the game.

This raises an important question: Why would players invest time in developing the skills to play more complex maps when they can achieve the same pp through maps that are more comfortable and intuitive? During the so-called "golden era," players were consistently exposed to this standard of play, reinforcing a skewed perception of skill—one that rewards oversimplification rather than well-rounded technical ability.

A RAY OF HOPE 6v2i6g

All of the previous arguments ultimately converge on why this change is necessary. We can think of it as a system requirement—just as knowledge is required to obtain a driver’s license or practice certain professions, the BN title is required to nominate maps. However, for this system to function fairly, the certification process must be formalized in a tangible and transparent way for the entire community.

Everyone has the right to attempt to become a BN, just as everyone has the right to drive a car—but not everyone possesses the necessary skills. The BN application system exists to evaluate those skills, but without a clear and structured foundation, its legitimacy is compromised. The same problem occurs with vetoes.

A large portion of the community agrees that maps should represent the song, and this ability to create a gameplay experience that aligns with the music is highly valued in osu! and often is what defines what makes a map “good”. Beyond just being playable, maps are expected to meet this standard. Unfortunately, as discussed earlier, the current PP system undermines this expectation, negatively affecting the player experience. Considering alternatives with a system that better evaluate skill completeness, like tournament map pools with some sort of matchmaking system, would be a tempting and promising option, but likely extremely difficult to implement, even if the potential outcome could be incredible for the health of the game. Although it is well known that the PP system evaluates little of the skills that a player can achieve. In my opinion, we could work on an alternative system that better evaluates players' skills and maintain the PP system while the other one is refined.

Returning to mapping, the solution is not to reject structured mapping, but to reform the system so that it properly values all aspects of osu! mapping. Instead of chasing an unattainable objective truth, the focus should be on creating a system that functions efficiently—like a driver’s license or professional certification, where the primary goal is to minimize harm rather than ensure perfection. The objective is not to nominate 'perfect maps', but to prevent fundamentally flawed ones from being ranked.

Vetoed maps often deviate from the paradigm of representing the song, yet discussions surrounding these cases still frame the debate around song representation, even when the argument lacks theoretical consistency. A better-established guideline would help resolve the deadlocks created by competing mapping paradigms, ensuring that discussions remain grounded in clear and structured principles rather than subjective disagreements.

As the community moves forward, it must embrace this paradigm shift. The pursuit of a structured, transparent system is not just a theoretical exercise—it is a necessary step toward preserving the integrity of osu! mapping and ensuring that the ranked section reflects the community’s shared values.

I'll be honest, while these are some great points for discussion, the text is really difficult to read due to being so lengthy and convoluted, to the point where it's sometimes unclear what you're trying to say. It's too abstract and some things aren't explained or substantiated by evidence or examples which makes it hard to turn it into actions. I also think you misused the term "organized lying" here as it can't really be applied to this situation.

It's probably impossible to get everyone on the same page regarding mapping standards and quality because different people have completely different viewpoints and unless a vast majority agrees on what is and isn't acceptable, it would be wrong to decide which subjective standards are "better". I also don't see a sensible way of establishing these via the RC without restricting a variety of mapping styles and philosophies. Frankly, the things written in the simplified RC should be a guide if anything since not all maps should have to follow the same concepts.

However, I do agree with some of the problems you mentioned, such as personal bias being enforced in evaluations and BN applications, resulting in inconsistent results and , or some mappers/maps getting away with major quality concerns, vetoes being inconsistent, and mentorship promoting certain beliefs that can lead to echo chambers within the community.

Defining mapping theory will also fragment people, cause now you have concrete outsiders whos mapping style is just "wrong" by definition in RC, which is up to debate at all times.

Subjectivity, as you mentioned, is inherent into mapping and modding and it is alright. To bring the same analogy about movies, you dont have your imdb filled with high quality products, it has its below 4 stars or w/e shows too.

Imo decision making about content of beatmaps is 100% up to peppy and not us

Haven't read the whole post, just the one part about BN mentorship

You write this as if you have concrete examples or something yet no examples of what these lies would even be are brought up. Provided that mapping itself is very subjective I'm not quite sure where you were going with that section

actually peppy doesn't care about beatmaps' quality but the quantity

agree with what most of mirash said personally, but i do think NAT having a little more of a say in the discussion of what is actually acceptable was actually good for the ecosystem at some point. peppy himself has way too much on his plate, being the BDFL that he is. what i don't think is good is development/maintenance time being taken away for him to play jury duty

as for the main point in OP about "formalizing" mapping theory i'm kinda mixed on it honestly... while having clearer guidelines is nice and all, IMO it would introduce tons of extra maintenance burden. this especially applies when the three groups you mentioned (mapper/modder/player) can already come to an answer on questions like that by themselves now. some people may not be nice to others when dealing with a subjective answer to those questions, but that's not the RC's problem, it's a people problem and trying to solve it with increasingly complex documentation might not be the play here

Agree with Mirash

The proposal of creating a theoretical framework for mapping is contradicted by the "mapping is subjective" point.

Author wrote: 6l3x4t

Rejecting by labeling it as “just an opinion” risks stifling meaningful discussion and fostering complacency, where conformism gives way to mediocrity.

Is ironic to say as you propose a "Mapping Theoretical Framework" in an attempt to standardize mapping...

Just to entertain the idea, Who gets to decide whats good or not then?

Wont we just go by majority? or is it going to be people of higher positions (NAT) which you describe as liars and perpetuate opinions in their said echo chambers. Or do you want it to be Peppy who made decisions like standardizing sv2 in lazer therefore making so many maps designed with sliderleniency in mind invalid?

Dont you benefit from the current system rather than this proposed one as you can point out your opinions even though they are not favored by majority?





Addendum: I dislike you because of how you interacted towards yuzuriha.
You insulted a stranger I defended a friend.

as someone who participated in the recent mentorship cycle, i just want to share that in no way did my mentor influence my thought process when it comes to determining a map's inherent quality. all my opinions were and still are purely mine. what was discussed in our mentorship cycles mostly relied on my own judgement. i can't speak for other mentorships but i can attest that in no way were we committing this "organized lying" that you are talking about, nor am i desperate to the bng that i am willing to go that far for the "dangling tangible reward" you mentioned in your post.

hell, i didn't even talk much with my mentor before this, and after making a gd for him i am 100% sure that we are very much not "like minded individuals" when it comes to making and looking at maps.

to me, the mentorship section of the post reads very much like it was written with nothing but speculation or suspicion to back it up, and to undermine the efforts of those who participate in it, which is actually very toxic. seeing how you were advocating being nontoxic i have no idea what made you act upon these suspicions in this way

consider not overthinking things - who are you to attempt to speak with authority on this ahah chill out

Any form of a concrete "objective quality" is never really going to happen due to how ridiculous it would be to enforce

But also what you dont say is that its subjective on both sides, any or any possible quality baseline (that isnt a rc violation) is always just as subjective and opinionated as what you are complaining about.

In any case i think its counter-intuitive to link like 5 wiki pages to things like strawman and appeal to authority in a mod post and expext people to take anything you say seriously afterwards

I think some points you make are real issues, like how new mappers have no concrete way of knowing all the unspoken stuff about rankable quality. but your solution to it is way too drastic, rather than (for example) just making educational resources that can bridge the knowledge gap or something

DeviousPanda wrote: 4p1i1u

I think some points you make are real issues, like how new mappers have no concrete way of knowing all the unspoken stuff about rankable quality

especially for non-english speaking countries

proposing this "theoretical framework" as basically the end-all-be-all all-encoming so called "standard" would be like invalidating some genres of music—made across vast periods of time—because they don't abide by an ambiguous set of rules formed in the contemporary. does that make any sense?

as someone that appreciates maps of a variety of styles, all this would be doing would be dubbing this vague "correct map" label on a portion of them, and another vague "incorrect map" label on another portion of them. sure, there is a degree of subjectivity to map quality, but i believe that even maps with polarising styles have their own merits, and reducing these separate merits to a singular 'objective' would just remove all form of nuance in the difference in approach and principles across different styles.

to put it simply:
if you don't understand a map, don't immediately think its bad, instead consider that other people map differently

The fragment of community is not because what you said lacking of theoretical framework, it's the result of the larger and larger community.

Fragemented community also brings the variety of mapping, which is not bad and couldn't be solved by what you said at all.

Mapping quality is totally subjective and it’s terrible and stupid to force people to map like ABC objectively while different people have different opinions, which also kills the creativity. Ranked section are more like a free market nowadays, if players don't like a map they just won't play. Quantity vs. Quality is not decided by us at all it's up to peppy.

Btw, the subjective quality thing already resuslt in bad even when it was controlled by an official team, then how a group of people can represent it and define the theoretical framework?

About BN mentorship, do you really know how BN mentorship works and how do you think it's misconception? Please stop your assuming while you don't provide anything.

Considering about the recent vetos you did and the results, and the fact your lacking of basic view of osu!stanard mapping, I'd say try to investigate, try to be more open-minded and less stubborn to different mapping concepts/styles. When you have different opinions against people, ask more people for consults and think twice before you take any action. People with different opinions against you are not always wrong, you are not always correct.

quite frankly i think "quality" is a bullshit term, however quantifying what quality is via the RC will open up an even bigger can of worms. hint: no one has an actual idea what the definition of "quality" is

if you restrict a definition, then it'll only benefit a certain group, the rest gets fucked over. this would be fine but that the past few years mapping has been more open and laxed, more mappers can rank things, more opportunities for innovation, scene is moving forward as a whole.

it's also quite the shame you've used the BN mentorship as an example for your case. while i disagree on how the mentorship is executed in certain ways, the mentorship does NOT reinforce personal opinions and encourage group lying and your accusation is inherently false. i am a graduate of the mentorship and quite frankly my views on mapping and what i think is OK couldn't be more different than my mentor's.

PSA can we as a group don't hyperfocus on "quality" and iron out stuff peacefully instead?

You explained what quality is to you (Subjective!) and rage quit from the game because people tend to see quality in things you don't. I actually checked your maps out because of this post and to say I'm disappointed would be an understatement, why are your maps not even near perfect if you spam vetoes on maps that have no issues? People learn their whole lives though

You bring up great points for the most vile and spiteful reasons possible.

I will not even get into the BN/NAT part because not only is it out of my depth, but more simply - I don't care.

however, you have brought up points about "fostering improvement" which are those that interest me - this community has a massive problem of not acknowledging objective truths (you can even see it in replies right above me) and you did absolutely nothing in that post to even come close to that - you just mentioned some blanket that conflate into an amalgamate set of nothing.

you work within the framework of wanting to foster talent, and yet you mention nothing about how modding itself is a dysfunctional tool for doing that - you want to put a bandaid on top of a system that relies on quite frankly, shitty bandaids done by people of varying skill level, definitely lower end though and that especially includes 95% of BNs who, including you, disconnect mapping and modding as two separate skills which is just objectively untrue.

all of that just comes off as shitty virtue signaling out of spite when you are the ultimate victim of all the things you have mentioned

you could not separate subjective things from objective ones and you've proven it multiple time with your - at best incompetent - and at worst bad faithed vetos or general conduct

I will mention it now so i don't get people calling me out - the ultimate objective truth in very big tldr is that you work within limitations of a 2d cartesian scale with set parameters for how objects look and you cannot go over that, separating it from any other vsrg game and this is what the system should be built around - i'm yet to be disproven on that. you haven't mentioned once how this is the entire point of fostering improvement and quite frankly i'd bet a 1000$ that your take is exactly the opposite

you only make things worse for everyone - you deepen confirmation bias for people who are already deeply unconvinced in any objective matter of quality (see comments above), they need to be taught and convinced to channel their knowledge and experience in other ways, not be a subject of some vindictive bullshit rant where you can't even bring up a single correct fundament for what you say, you also make it worse who already believe in that mindset because we will be associated with people like you

i recommend you don't talk about things in a position of authority when you couldn't point out the crux thing to save your life.

i understood none of this and never want to see it again. swallow me.

I’m particularly against an absolute baseline and standard of mapping "quality" because comparing a lot of maps is like comparing apples to oranges. I personally don’t get the appeal of old maps but I respect them and can still accept them as good, especially since I know for a fact (frens and people I meet in multis) that there are quite a few people who particularly enjoy that style of map. If you’ve seen that one video about interviewing mappers and players about mapping and maps they like, all the more that there are people who love old mapping as players, it’s not something that should be yeeted. I think about it like there are various kinds of artstyles and mediums. They use some of the same techniques/tools, and some that just don't translate to the other. Anime and cartoon styles aren't wrong for using wrong proportions or not having realistic lighting/shading, that idea of really accurate proportions just doesn't apply. You can hate cartoons all you want, they still have rather large fanbases. Same case for various styles of mapping.

Mapping terminology standardization feels like a must though, since so many are often nonsensical to someone new to mapping. Including that in some osu wiki page would definitely help in standardizing the language but determining exactly which are correct for which ideas may be another story which I haven’t figured out yet. I've heard three different interpretations of axis and various misunderstandings of the term, various thresholds of "trianglemaxxing" countless theories on overlap visuals and explanations for those in their corresponding styles (which I still struggle with pls help) and a lot of are reaally vibes-based, like what the fork determines a "tag" slider and when it stops being "tag". I agree with this idea of formalizing mapping theory, but as long as it doesn't decidedly nuke some established mapping style and doesn't close the door for the evolution of new styles of mapping.

And like what the fork is quality? Yeah, mapping is the connection of auditory, motor, and optical stimuli using the limited tools provided, so which of the countless definitions of quality made should survive? Just the one you think is right? Should it vary based on which style the map is made in? Should that style even be standardized and funnel everyone within it towards mapping the same map on every song they do in it? From my inconceivably limited perspective, it's just how well any idea for this connection is conveyed, so that the player or viewer can actually easily identify that idea. From all the mappers I greatly respect, the maps I like make it unbelievably clear what aspect of the song they extract and what experience they're trying to create, at least to me. They at least look and feel full of thought and idea, and even if not, a deeper dive reveals the concepts that now change my experience looking at and playing the map for the better. ((ignore Best Thai Map, that's an inside joke))

Take literally everything I say with a sea of salt as ramblings of a nothing burger tho, since I still am like mapping baby, negative mapping brain cells type beat. I kinda just wanna leave my two nickels. On the other hand, ima juice Satte here and I hope he cooks something up for this if it does come to .

The greatest kings aren't the ones with the most servants, but the ones who serve the most. ~ I forgor where i heard this T_T

I agree with Raiko that there is, in fact, an objective (or sufficiently intersubjective) quality standard and also with App that you are probably the last person who should be bringing it up.

"we need to remove subjectivity and make my subjective opinion the objective one"

also seeing this from a ed 2020 is so funny

unrelated but in the early-mid 1800s, an influential french academy named the ecole des beaux arts attempted to dictate the standards for what could be considered 'good art'

the official art exhibition of the french academy of fine arts called the 'salon' which was the most prestigious place for artists at the time to show off their work adopted these standards and would only accept and display submissions which would strictly adhere to these standards

these exhibitions then went on to shape the public perception of what could be considered 'good art' and as a result, radical styles not adhering to the institutional standards were dismissed as amateurish, inferior, and unworthy of recognition

additionally, an emphasis on these standards favored artists who were trained in elite institutions which marginalized nonacademic artists as well as those who were self trained

after an incredible amount of frustration and protests from artists and a portion of the public, napoleon III, the president at the time actually had to intervene himself and establish an alternative exhibition named the 'salon des refuses' which displayed works which were rejected by the salon jury

even with this, however, the general opinion of the public had been so entrenched in their preconceptions established by the institutional standards that the majority of the crowd at the salon des refuses were there to mock the works on display

however, over time, as more and more artists began to reject the authority of the ecole des beaux arts and went on to develop styles such as realism, impressionism, modernism, etc; the groundwork was laid for the artistic environment which we have today where diversity, innovation, and self expression are celebrated and art standardization is more or less nonexistent

i will give my thoughts on this one cuz i find this opinion so delusional

WHY LACKING A THEORETICAL FRAMEWORK IS NOT A PROBLEM
A theoretical framework may attempt to provide consistency, but mapping will always be guided by personal interpretation. The lack of fixed standards allows each mapper to bring their unique perspective to the game, fostering a diverse mapping environment. Additionally, subjectivity does not inherently equate to favoritism; if we assume that opinions will differ, it naturally follows that a variety of can enrich a mapper’s growth rather than undermine it. Ultimately, will always have an element of personal interpretation, but this is part of what makes mapping an expressive art form.

ON THE "FALSE DICHOTOMY OF CONTRAST"
Contrast in mapping—whether based on intensity or structure—depends on the mapper's artistic vision. Trying to impose a binary standard on contrast (good/bad) limits this creative freedom. Since the notion of "good contrast" varies among players and mappers, labeling some contrasts as correct and others as incorrect oversimplifies the nuanced relationship between map and music. It’s subjective whether a particular contrast is effective or not, and flexibility allows for richer, more diverse maps.

ON LOW DIFFICULTIES REFLECTING THE SONG
The idea that low difficulties must reflect the song may be a guideline for some, but each mapper has their unique approach to creating lower-difficulty maps. While reflecting the song might be a common practice, forcing every map to follow this principle removes the mapper’s discretion to determine the best way to simplify the main difficulty. Different approaches lead to greater diversity in gameplay experiences, allowing new players to experience a variety of styles within lower-difficulty maps, rather than being confined to a single standard.

ON DOUBLE STANDARDS AND SPECIAL PLEADING IN MAPPING
Every modder and evaluator interprets maps differently, and as with any subjective practice, certain biases will arise. Rather than seeing this as hypocrisy, it's more productive to view it as natural variation. Mappers have unique intentions and each modder brings a personal perspective, which can create different interpretations of what makes a map “correct” or “appropriate.” Embracing this diversity, rather than standardizing it, enriches mapping as a practice and allows for a greater range of creative freedom.

ON "IRRELEVANT" IN EVALUATIONS
is inherently subjective. What one modder sees as "irrelevant" may hold significant value for another, depending on their mapping philosophy. Expecting modders to agree universally ignores the reality that each person will have their standards and ideas. Rather than fragmenting the community, this diversity in can help mappers grow by exposing them to a range of perspectives. Standards can guide , but insisting on strict objectivity risks turning modding into a mechanical process, rather than a constructive, creative exchange.

ON THE MINIMUM STANDARDS DEBATE
Minimum standards are not about avoiding mediocrity; they are baseline requirements that ensure maps meet certain gameplay essentials. However, beyond this baseline, creativity should have the freedom to flourish. Mapping innovation often lies in breaking boundaries, and higher standards should not discourage mappers from taking creative risks. If meeting the minimum is seen as mediocrity, then it's the push for creative excellence—not stricter standards—that will inspire mappers to go beyond the basics.

ON "OBJECTIVITY" IN THE MAPPER'S AND BN’S ROLES
The BN’s role is not only to enforce a technical baseline but to provide individual insights that enhance each map's unique qualities. Objectivity is helpful for technical aspects, but beyond that, BN and modder input should be subjective to preserve the map's creativity. Standards give the process structure, but if they become rigid, they risk transforming mappers into technicians, undermining the creative spirit that makes mapping enjoyable and engaging for both mappers and players.

ON THE "ELITISM" ARGUMENT
Striving for excellence is valuable, but it’s essential to that excellence is also subjective. Each mapper may have a different vision of what makes a map "excellent," and fostering a high standard of quality should not exclude those who approach mapping differently. By encouraging a culture of collaboration and openness to varied ideas, the community can celebrate a range of mapping styles and prevent a single, exclusionary definition of excellence.

ON THE ROLE OF BEATMAP SPOTLIGHTS
While Beatmap Spotlights aim to highlight top-quality maps, they risk creating an ideal of excellence that excludes other forms of creativity. Not all players or mappers aspire to fit into a rigid definition of “top-tier mapping.” Maps that stand out to players will naturally gain recognition, and these different styles and approaches are part of what enriches the osu! experience. Instead of setting a standard of what’s “good enough,” the ranked section should remain open to diverse styles that resonate with different segments of the community.

ON "MAPPING IS SUBJECTIVE"
Mapping, like other art forms, allows for personal interpretation, and subjectivity is not a flaw. Constructive grounded in personal insights helps mappers grow and promotes discussion, rather than conformity. When respects the mapper’s style, it creates a collaborative atmosphere where subjective and objective aspects balance each other. The mapping community benefits from a variety of approaches, fostering a culture that values individuality while still providing constructive, meaningful .

ON FORMALIZING "MAPPING THEORY"
While a mapping theory could provide structure, it risks limiting creativity by imposing a one-size-fits-all approach. Mapping ideas are personal, and forcing a rigid framework would reduce the flexibility that allows osu! mapping to thrive. Instead of solidifying a universal theory, it’s more beneficial to encourage a set of flexible guidelines that inspire creativity and provide a reference, while still respecting the subjectivity at the heart of mapping.

CONCLUSION
In conclusion, while a theoretical framework could create consistency, it is not essential to osu! mapping. Acknowledging the subjective nature of mapping allows each mapper to bring unique ideas to the community, fostering an inclusive, diverse environment that can accommodate a variety of styles and interpretations. Embracing the subjectivity in mapping enriches the osu! ecosystem, allowing mappers and modders alike to continue exploring creative possibilities and challenging boundaries in the game.

Yo guys just a quick heads-up : As much as the proposed opinion is highly unpopular, please refrain from posting memes and short one-liners that do nothing but vilify the OP here ty 🙏

That being said...

Yeah, I agree with the air here that while there are certain ways to evaluate mapping quality to a degree if you want to perceive it per se (playfield usage/visual coherency/etc...), mapping is ultimately an act of interpreting the song, and you can only go "right" or "wrong" for so far when it comes into interpretations.

(Even maps as left-field such as this one don't necessarily mean that they're wrongly interpreted for what they are, because "mapping the song" ≠ "mapping the sounds in the song", even though by your "theoretical framework" these maps would most likely be scrapped right at the gate.)

The metadata RC is written that way as it's meant to standardize things up on a subject matter that has a very little room for interpretation. The general RC, however, deals with things that are way more open and is NOT meant to be an absolute catch-all baseline for everything — except on points that can't otherwise be disputed from the very beginning of course, e.g. "There may not be two hitobjects at the same tick".

would be awesome if you posted your actual thoughts and didnt have chatgpt rephrase it. more words doesn't make your proposition better.

"I agree with Raiko that there is, in fact, an objective (or sufficiently intersubjective) quality standard"

There isn't, and that's why his post was nuked to oblivion. You guys might think that certain "groups" that you're part of know what quality is, but it means nothing when the community is fragmented and opinions are all over the place. Just accept that there's no such thing and enjoy the content you like with others who also enjoy it and let people who think differently also enjoy their stuff and move on.

not sure what you mean by "nuked by oblivion" but i'll bite - you're the only person implying that using objective quality standard from the nature of the game itself (which you literally can't cheat, it comes from a bunch of objective facts) is somehow used to put people down and ostracize them

which, oh the irony, the opposite is used to do just that by nepotism and pandering to those groups you mentioned since forever

sounds a bit like projection to me, i'm really not sure what got you to be this defensive over a simple fact

edit: actually i figured out what you mean, the post isn't being shat on because of it trying to set objectivity, it's being shat on because OP is a dumbass and it's all the opposite of what's being mentioned

A unified mapping theory is impossible, everyone has different ideas about mapping and people would just tear each other apart if they had to conform to one main theory

There's not much else to say, so just learn the style of mapping from mappers that you like and keep an open mind to other styles

I kinda see the vision between this post, however the intention and arguments behind it are wrong. I agree that quality has deteriorated over the years, this was a natural outcome ever since the Quality Assurance Team was disbanded, it truly was just a matter of time.

Now onto the points that picked my interest enough to respond;

melleganol wrote: o4h1n

LOW DIFFICULTIES DOES NOT NEED TO REFLECT THE SONG: This was said by a NAT member in a recent discussion (and despite saying that it is only their opinion, they reinforce it in an evaluation).

It was not reinforced, I stated my opinion which was clearly not used for the evaluation consensus. If you actually read the ending of the evaluation I provided a reasoning as to why I believe this eval was not enough to make it a . Don't get me wrong though, the NAT evaluation system is far from perfect. However we are doing our best to improve evaluations and we took your previous post about possible inconsistencies to heart and started working on that and making results out of it, we hear everyone and take notes equally.

melleganol wrote: o4h1n

The BN mentorship system was intended to help possible applicants get better in a shorter time with the guidance of a NAT member. While this sounds like a good idea, some aspects were approached too carelessly. Having NAT who reinforce beliefs that are not true generates a greater spread of misconceptions, but also that they bring other like-minded individuals to their claims (organized lying) creating an echo chamber and ultimately creating an environment incapable of holding a coherent discussion

This not only it comes without any proof, but also is far from any truth. We do not brainwash people here, we teach them how to properly check mapsets, how to identify map quality issues and a little bit more in order to survive as a Beatmap Nominator. We do not implement our ideas onto them, but rather just teach them how to get by in the team. Just like somebody starting a new job and getting mentored by someone with time experience it's really not a big deal.

I kinda "believe" you think we do because I actually nominated the map you vetoed with someone I mentored, but we are talking about a former QAT/BAT/BN with way more mapping experience than me, I did not teach him anything else besides the current mapping meta and what I said above.

melleganol wrote: o4h1n

It’s important to understand that striving for excellence in any field is not about exclusion; it’s about raising the bar for everyone. This doesn’t mean shutting out new mappers or demanding perfection, but rather fostering an environment where effort, creativity, and skill are encouraged and celebrated. By encouraging the pursuit of higher standards, we create an atmosphere where learning, collaboration, and progress are the natural outcomes. A culture of excellence benefit not just top-tier mappers but the entire community, as new mappers learn from a system that encourages improvement and creativity. By continually pushing boundaries, we create a dynamic environment where everyone can contribute, evolve, and be motivated to improve. It’s not about excluding individuals but about cultivating an atmosphere where skill, effort, and creativity are rewarded, and everyone has the opportunity to rise to their full potential. Can also help break down silos by encouraging open, constructive dialogue about unconventional ideas.

My past self would probably agree with this perhaps. Although the ideal of "striving for excellence in any field" sounds really promising, it is still an ideal. Ideals are unfortunately far from what anyone can achieve at the point we've reached.
I have so much more I could say about this, but I will refrain from getting too personal on my own mapping beliefs because it's beyond this topic to me.

melleganol wrote: o4h1n

Also, there is no point in improving (irrelevant ) if you only have to do the bare minimum, why do you want over-trained workers? And it also makes no sense if the is illogical for one group and logical for another, only further fragments the community. So the overall feeling is this: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - etc etc.

This is the point that kinda bothers me the most, it's not the argument, it's the fact that you used evaluations that were denied for reasons other than the actual modding (e.g Sotarks who got denied for mainly lack of modding in application) I will not speak about Sonnyc's evaluation in order to respect his privacy.

I can only say, if the reason is NOT public, try to avoid jumping to conclusions. I already said this answering to somebody on a tweet because it was really out of touch and unnecessary take, this goes for the similar ones under the original tweet. Regardless of that, I think the content we (the NAT) expect from applicants is pretty clear in the Becoming a Beatmap Nominator wiki.

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Now my personal thoughts on applications (DOES NOT REPRESENT ANYONE ELSE IN THE NAT);

I am somebody that got by learning modding by reading BN application evaluations, to get by and improve until at some point I got mentored by a few people and then BN mentored. I just kept witnessing a trend, said trend is I believe still very common between applicants and currently a few modding mentors and can cause a lot of misconceptions. That is called OPEN BOOK MODDING (came up with this name but you get it), modding without using your knowledge, just based on documents on how to write mods rather than your own mapping experience or copying how somebody mods without knowing such mods might not apply in a different map. I am not saying everybody does this but even I used to be a victim of that trend because it's how I was taught how to mod initially.

What I'm trying to say is that being good at modding without mapping knowledge is not possible, you get stagnated at some point and just do the same mods every time. In which, sometimes even application might not even help because people are too used to do things that way. But hey, I am NOT denying at all that you still need to put up work even if you are good at mapping. I am not mentioning anyone in specific with this, just my overall thoughts that came from doing dozens and dozens of evaluations throughout the year.

This is why people who apply should use a map they can understand and objectively improve enough to use in applications, ask for (heck, even some NATs do to people trying to apply) and do your best. I believe this is all based on mindset, things don't come up to you, you have to get them yourself.



Anyway, I agree with what most people said in this thread, just wanted to add my own thoughts on some matters.

I agree with the point melleganol made about labeling something as 'subjective', which allows the mapper to deny any mods without seriously considering it and/or giving a proper reasoning why the mapper liked their original idea better. Not giving a proper response is a bit insulting to the modder, considering that the modder spent time giving on your map. Without any kind of reasoning it's hard to distinguish whether the mod was unhelpful or the mod was helpful but just didn't align with the mapper's perspective.

As a sidenote, normalizing rejecting mods for the reasoning that 'it's my style' may also give room for discussion about placements that clearly defy the ranking criteria which is a waste of time for anyone involved.

I appreciate that melleganol posted this to spark discussion, even though the thread is kind of hostile for them. It can be hard to speak up about things that you feel strongly about in such an official way and it feels wrong for me to have been made aware of this thread through people shittalking melleganol in a Discord channel.

Castagne wrote: 5f21k

I agree with the point melleganol made about labeling something as 'subjective', which allows the mapper to deny any mods without seriously considering it and/or giving a proper reasoning why the mapper liked their original idea better. Not giving a proper response is a bit insulting to the modder, considering that the modder spent time giving on your map. Without any kind of reasoning it's hard to distinguish whether the mod was unhelpful or the mod was helpful but just didn't align with the mapper's perspective.

I don't see how this is an issue whatsoever

I probably wouldn't agree with most of your proposals to fix the problems you mention (if I even agree they are problems) but I respect the effort to pitch discussion and work on larger questions like this. since I won't respond to most of it I'll just say I'm at a similar place as Raiko and maybe momoyo

the sections about "minimum standards" and "formalize mapping theory" do resonate with me, though again probably not in the sense that we think they should result in the same systemic changes

minimum standards:
the angle I've been thinking about this recently is actually from the other end, not about mappers who could do better yet settle for "acceptable", but about (newer) mappers who can't yet consistently meet minimum standards and seem eager to do so. it's always disappointing to me to see this attitude that ranking their map is the goal rather than refining their work until they're proud of it. I wish there were some way for people to understand their progress as a mapper, not just as a function of how easily they can rank maps, but in of how they can intuit mapping concepts/theory and execute them in fun and/or creative ways, to enable some kind of further goal ppl can aim for when they are still in early learning phase

that being said the "minimum standards" I would personally enjoy enforced for Ranked aren't necessarily all about map quality it's more of a vibe thing. I still love playing maps by technically less skilled mappers so long as it feels like there was a charming/innocent intent to just make something fun and share it with ppl. for various reasons you touched on, I think that feeling of innocence is far less common in modern Ranked

for the pp part I agree and feel like it is still very understated just how harmful SR/pp v2 has been to osu overall. this is the thing I would single out as the most prominent negative influence on the entire situation, if I had to pick

formalize mapping theory:
I don't think it belongs in RC but I would love to see more proper writing about concepts that produce legitimately good maps rather than just... rules. even if I kinda agree with points made by the ppl who went on to bash u in this thread, I would like to see your contribution to this effort cuz it sounds like you've given it a lot of thought. I want to see more genuine attempts at mapping education that aren't shy about exploring so-called "subjective" topics and diving into the specific fundamentals of the mapping styles the educator finds most compelling

after stepping away from the game I think something I’ve come to appreciate in things like music theory and art is just how documented everything is. You would never (almost) hear someone say music isn’t subjective but people have written countless textbooks on music and art. I think it would be cool if osu had an analogue. I think the beauty of this game is that at the end of the day the maps we see are a result of a very human experience, in which people are brought up differently and come to appreciate different things as a mix of their personal values and things they were predisposed to.

People should formalize those things! Write down what makes a map good for you. Get as specific as possible. I’m confident many mappers could write a whole essay about a few simple patterns and not even realize it. Next time you make a map write about it. If nothing else it’s a great thought experiment. I think there’s value in theoretical study as a complement to practical experience. That’s what modding maps is kinda supposed to be but it doesn’t really feel like that in practice.

But making these types of things into actual rules is where it’s lost on me. Maybe I’m naive though. I don’t want to lose out on potential future maps because people saw a given framework and limited themselves in some way.