that being said hi im kai and i like your ava

hi i dont like yours

oh

kai99 wrote: 212g2z

why would we have to not respect them

to be or not 2b?

2b mapping, u know the thing with 2b stuff, with multiple clicks and ... haha funny no?

You guys try and force your "common sense" on others too forcefully smh

Now I know this sounds stupid, but:

you already know that this question sounds stupid so why even ask?

DJ Enetro wrote: 1t3h

Why do we have to respect mods and their work?

why not? you still haven't stated your reason.

You guys try and force your "common sense" on others too forcefully smh

you already said force once, guy. what is your common sense, then? you can't even prove them wrong.

My common sense is not to assume that your likes and ideals are best for everyone. Simple as that.
Also, you guys have called me out on my Satires. Isn't that constructive criticism no it's not lmao
But why can I not say my opinion however the fuck I want to

DJ Enetro wrote: 1t3h

My common sense is not to assume that your likes and ideals are best for everyone. Simple as that.

And you that with...?
It's just nothing rn

DJ Enetro wrote: 1t3h

Also, you guys have called me out on my Satires. Isn't that constructive criticism no it's not lmao

Your what now?

DJ Enetro wrote: 1t3h

But why can I not say my opinion however the fuck I want to

But you haven't given your opinion. You've said we shouldn't, but WHY?

Allmynamestaken wrote: d6k4l

Just like what Tae said, why on earth would you not respect someone who is voluntarily doing a job in their own time to help you people? They spend out of their free time just to fucking babysit you people and making sure that things kept working.

But of course, a spoiled brat like you wouldn't understand.

Why on earth would I respect someone like that more than my own position in this community?
I'm voluntarily reading threads, posting and contributing to the communitiy. I spend my freetime to fucking make this place be alive but of course a spoiled brat like you wouldn't understand.
No deserves more respect than he earns himself through his actions and behaviour. The evaluation of these is to perform on each individual and there is nothing wrong with different results.

My common sense is not to assume that your likes and ideals are best for everyone. Simple as that.

that's like saying that the golden rule is not the best thing for you. don't be expected to receive it then.

Also, you guys have called me out on my Satires. Isn't that constructive criticism no it's not lmao

i don't even know what you're trying to say here

But why can I not say my opinion however the fuck I want to

oh yeah you are entitled to your opinion but people are also free to tell you that your opinion is shit; so far they have given more reasons than you have (not a very high bar, since you haven't provided any). i mean, you did open a thread about it, thus enticing discussion. were you expecting everybody to agree with you?

Endaris wrote: 2c1i17

Why on earth would I respect someone like that more than my own position in this community?
I'm voluntarily reading threads, posting and contributing to the communitiy. I spend my freetime to fucking make this place be alive but of course a spoiled brat like you wouldn't understand.

And how exactly are you stopping people going wild? If anything you're just encouraging it
That's a bs comparison and you know it.

Why on earth would I respect someone like that more than my own position in this community?

nobody said to give mods more respect than yourself, though. that's just you assuming. then again, it seems like that's what you do all the time anyway. the question was "why should we respect mods", not "why should we respect mods more than ourselves". the answer should be pretty clear.

I'm voluntarily reading threads, posting and contributing to the communitiy

oh fuck off

I spend my freetime to fucking make this place be alive

jesus christ

Given my past experience as a on a decently crowded board (about as much as this osu!forums) I can definitely tell you that there is not much to being a mod.
You're not a mod because you're fit for it but because you got someone with power to trust you with power. This is in no relation to your actual position within the community, your personality and your overall contributions as a person. A title does not earn respect and all it gives you is the possibility of performing rather boring istrative tasks related to forum functionality like moving threads or locking necros. Anything beyond that is completely unrelated to being a .

Endaris wrote: 2c1i17

You're not a mod because you're fit for it but because you got someone with power to trust you with power.

That's not universal in the slightest. I've been a on various boards in the past, and they're all based on applications, as to why you would be suited for it.
I doubt that is how it would work here either.

Endaris wrote: 2c1i17

A title does not earn respect and all it gives you is the possibility of performing rather boring istrative tasks related to forum functionality like moving threads or locking necros. Anything beyond that is completely unrelated to being a .

And as I've said before, you don't go out making their job harder on purpose, do you now?
You don't intentionally be a dick, do you?

good for you, lad. you still deserve respect for doing the shit job nobody wants to do. you may not want it, but you definitely deserve it. however, the situation here is a bit different since the last designated OT mod went inactive and all the mods who decided (out of their own will) to take care of this place also do other things than locking shitposting threads and necros. they're handling much more important things than OT and to have people cause more trouble because they think it's funny is not only a big waste of time, but quite disrespectful towards their position.

A title does not earn respect and all it gives you is the possibility of performing rather boring istrative tasks related to forum functionality like moving threads or locking necros. Anything beyond that is completely unrelated to being a .

even though you worked hard to deserve that title? you demand respect for spending your free time being a , which requires no stress whatsoever, but here you are, saying that mods don't deserve any for doing boring, shitty work.

my point here is, everyone deserves respect on the same level. some mods deserve more respect depending on their experiences and history, just like you said. but you're the one who jumped in claiming that this thread was about giving more respect when in reality OP was talking about giving NONE

That has nothing to do with being a mod. It does not need a mod to tell a dick that he's not welcome if he breaks the community's rules.
Communities have their own ways of telling people they should fuck off.

Also, to validate my first statement: Pawsu, obviously a perfect fit for a mod was not considered as a mod because there was no need for mods at a certain time and there was no incentive to trust her with power. Meanwhile there are other people on the GMT (like 1 or 2 people, don't know most of them) that I wouldn't call fitting but they have been trusted with power and they're not doing shit with it on an istrative level. I don't respect them as persons.

tl;dr
Respecting the rules is unrelated to respecting s. It helps if the s are respectable but it is in no way a requirement.

Oh yeah, my first answer was supposed to be a half-ironic reply to Allmynameistaken because I found his answer disgustingly stupid.
Idk how one would have taken that as an agreement with Enetro.

Also about the "none wants to do this"-thing: You sure have an idea how many people got ditched when GMT-applications opened? Personally I even volunteered specifically to take care of forum instead of chat mostly (like Brian) and pointed out how some sectons of the forum are literally unmoderated but looks like I can't be trusted with power 8)

Also, to validate my first statement: Pawsu, obviously a perfect fit for a mod was not considered as a mod because there was no need for mods at a certain time and there was no incentive to trust her with power. Meanwhile there are other people on the GMT (like 1 or 2 people, don't know most of them) that I wouldn't call fitting but they have been trusted with power and they're not doing shit with it on an istrative level. I don't respect them as persons.

that's your opinion. unless you present solid evidence that those two other mods are not fitting then i call that bias.

That has nothing to do with being a mod. It does not need a mod to tell a dick that he's not welcome if he breaks the community's rules.
Communities have their own ways of telling people they should fuck off.

but it gets a mod to forcibly remove that dick, since the has no power to do that. all they can do is tell others to follow the rules, but what can he do if that asshole decides not to listen to him? mods are able to do things that are not within our power and we should give them some respect for doing the shit job nobody wants to do.

if we don't respect them, how do we expect them to respect us back? very basic thought right there.

You sure have an idea how many people got ditched when GMT-applications opened? Personally I even volunteered specifically to take care of forum instead of chat mostly (like Brian) and pointed out how some sectons of the forum are literally unmoderated but looks like I can't be trusted with power 8)

doing a sneaky double post, aren't you? i'm sorry it didn't work out for you, but there's no need to be such a sour butt about it. i don't know why they haven't chosen you, and i'm sure they have their reason why they wouldn't trust you with their power. but this is unrelated. that doesn't mean mods deserve less respect just because you or other people didn't manage to be GMT

Endaris wrote: 2c1i17

Given my past experience as a on a decently crowded board (about as much as this osu!forums) I can definitely tell you that there is not much to being a mod.
You're not a mod because you're fit for it but because you got someone with power to trust you with power. This is in no relation to your actual position within the community, your personality and your overall contributions as a person. A title does not earn respect and all it gives you is the possibility of performing rather boring istrative tasks related to forum functionality like moving threads or locking necros. Anything beyond that is completely unrelated to being a .

You see, I completely agree with you in regards to the mod earning his own reputation. I don't, however, agree with you saying that there isn't much to being a proper mod. Yeah, a guy with power gave you power, we can see that first hand here with Stefan and other infantile mods, BUT if you do your job correctly you're going to have a tougher time. Of course you aren't going to do much if you sit around and lock 1 thread every 15 years while massaging your scrotum.

@Fox

good for you, lad. you still deserve respect for doing the shit job nobody wants to do.

There's plenty of people who want to have that job, what are you on about?

they're handling much more important things than OT and to have people cause more trouble because they think it's funny is not only a big waste of time, but quite disrespectful towards their position.

Those people asked for the position, got the position and are responsible for their own reputation within the community. If they do a shit job at it, they earn their own reputation based on it.
That's why mods who did a decent job aren't disrespected in the same manner these new ones are.

even though you worked hard to deserve that title? you demand respect for spending your free time being a , which requires no stress whatsoever, but here you are, saying that mods don't deserve any for doing boring, shitty work.

Point is null and void because of the first line up there being wrong, but is even more so because mods here are absolutely sad examples of "hard work". On other forums I'd agree with you on that point, but not here.

If we don't respect them they did something inherently wrong. I don't have an opinion on most mods, meaning that I'm going to approach them with some standard respect (as for pretty much any person I don't know) until they do something that makes me lose it.
Then again, it's the mismatch between respecting the rules and respecting s. If I respect the rules I'm not going to start to break the law just to troll that stupid idiot that incidently happens to have privileges.

And on the mods that are not fitting. Well, I'm not going to blackmail by name, you can do 1+1 here but there is a certain NL mod that consistently came over to #german to casually talk in english there and wouldn't stop in spite of several people asking him to either try and communicate in german (he has german at school and understands half of the stuff written in the channel so this is actually a sensible request).
Add the following situation:
200k player asks in german in #help how to improve faster, I check his profile and tell him (also in german) to play less big bleck and more easier maps because he has sub90% weighted accuracy and over 300 playcount on big bleck and airman. 200k guy becomes vocal and starts insulting me because i'm giving trash advice. That mod comes in and calls me out.
I'm like "okay, if the mod doesn't want me to in this channel, i'm gonna leave, but i know for sure that HE is not going to answer noob questions"

Endaris wrote: 2c1i17

Oh yeah, my first answer was supposed to be a half-ironic reply to Allmynameistaken because I found his answer disgustingly stupid.
Idk how one would have taken that as an agreement with Enetro.

Also about the "none wants to do this"-thing: You sure have an idea how many people got ditched when GMT-applications opened? Personally I even volunteered specifically to take care of forum instead of chat mostly (like Brian) and pointed out how some sectons of the forum are literally unmoderated but looks like I can't be trusted with power 8)

with your attitude in your past few posts (OT or not) it's pretty obvious as to why you weren't trusted!

something like 85% of the GMT apps ended in denial. we have pretty strict criteria for people ing the team regardless of what you might think

one of the biggest red flags you can have for a is them mentioning their 'tenure' on another site and community like it means something. big news shitdick: your experience moderating other forums means fuckall for osu! or whatever other community you're trying to get power on. it's completely unverifiable, barely applicable to the point in question and at worst, an attempt to ingratiate yourself to the person reading the application based on what you've done somewhere else

if anything, it makes me wonder why you stopped there, or if you're already a mod somewhere else, why aren't you giving them all of your attention instead?

people hawk on and on and on about 'power' or whatever but always forget that this 'power' is prefaced with the immense responsibility of keeping things fun for everyone else and having to not turn a blind eye to the shittiest parts of humanity on a daily basis. people mod generally because they want to help out, power doesn't even cross their minds for the most part.

There's plenty of people who want to have that job, what are you on about?

they want it because it sounds fun, but they don't realize that being a good mod is not fun, no matter which board. of course the idea sounds attractive, but do they actually want it? and even if they do, they can't guarantee doing a good job.

Those people asked for the position, got the position and are responsible for their own reputation within the community. If they do a shit job at it, they earn their own reputation based on it.
That's why mods who did a decent job aren't disrespected in the same manner these new ones are.

true, but that doesn't mean mods should be given no respect from the getgo, like OP was suggesting.

Point is null and void because of the first line up there being wrong, but is even more so because mods here are absolutely sad examples of "hard work". On other forums I'd agree with you on that point, but not here.

and that's because the mods that we have right now didn't apply with the idea of taking care of OT. give them some lax. they didn't know how OT works (i don't know if they do now), but then again there was nobody else was here to moderate this place. imagine if there was no Stefan or Flanster locking all those bad threads. they did their best to weed out the worst, and they have failed at times to do so. don't forget that they're human too. i used to be mad at them, but now i'm just sad that they have to deal with such childish kids. i'm sure they did their hard work in other sections of the forum though.

If we don't respect them they did something inherently wrong. I don't have an opinion on most mods, meaning that I'm going to approach them with some standard respect (as for pretty much any person I don't know) until they do something that makes me lose it.
Then again, it's the mismatch between respecting the rules and respecting s. If I respect the rules I'm not going to start to break the law just to troll that stupid idiot that incidently happens to have privileges.

when i said "if you expect mods to respect you, then respect them back", it also counted vice versa. if the mods go out of their way to disrespect the s, then they shouldn't expect respect. my point was that mods deserve BASIC respect just like any other human being. some mods deserve less, and some mods deserve more, and it all depends on what they have done and if they're trying to repent themselves. no need to spit towards their way if they're trying to fix what they have wronged, either.

And on the mods that are not fitting. Well, I'm not going to blackmail by name, you can do 1+1 here but there is a certain NL mod that consistently came over to #german to casually talk in english there and wouldn't stop in spite of several people asking him to either try and communicate in german (he has german at school and understands half of the stuff written in the channel so this is actually a sensible request).
Add the following situation:
200k player asks in german in #help how to improve faster, I check his profile and tell him (also in german) to play less big bleck and more easier maps because he has sub90% weighted accuracy and over 300 playcount on big bleck and airman. 200k guy becomes vocal and starts insulting me because i'm giving trash advice. That mod comes in and calls me out.
I'm like "okay, if the mod doesn't want me to in this channel, i'm gonna leave, but i know for sure that HE is not going to answer noob questions"

then you should report them instead of gossiping about it, mmhh? i mean, if you have the evidence, then you might as well do it.

I should've been accepted as GMT

also you are all retarded

they want it because it sounds fun, but they don't realize that being a good mod is not fun, no matter which board. of course the idea sounds attractive, but do they actually want it? and even if they do, they can't guarantee doing a good job.

That still doesn't change the fact that many people want the job, which clashes with your initial statement that barely anyone applies for the position.

true, but that doesn't mean mods should be given no respect from the getgo, like OP was suggesting.

Oh, no, I was just responding to your lines. Enetro is a fucking dickwad so I don't really take him seriously. Your statements are the point of our discussion here.

and that's because the mods that we have right now didn't apply with the idea of taking care of OT. give them some lax. they didn't know how OT works (i don't know if they do now), but then again there was nobody else was here to moderate this place. imagine if there was no Stefan or Flanster locking all those bad threads. they did their best to weed out the worst, and they have failed at times to do so. don't forget that they're human too. i used to be mad at them, but now i'm just sad that they have to deal with such childish kids. i'm sure they did their hard work in other sections of the forum though.

Well, we should blame whoever is responsible for hiring mods, then. I'm not going to start respecting people like Stefan for reasons that go beyond his moderation skills, but I'm not going to blame him in this situation IF he indeed didn't apply for modding OT. Instead, I'm going to put that argument towards his superiors who don't give a shit about proper moderation of this place.

as far as respect goes: nobody "deserves" your respect. this does not however make your respect a commodity that people must be aware of attaining, because in reality, who gives a fuck about what you think?

Oh god, Eph, I'm not surprised about the denial. I got more lose in my behaviour here in osu! and I simply applied to make an offer. I also didn't try to make myself appear as the best person in my application because I know that's not gonna help you at all.
It was the same for the other forum I moderated, I already mentioned in my app for that one that I would probably drop out at month X to focus on the begin of university.

I'm also very aware that people don't become mods because they seek power. There is a reason why I would usually think of mods as people who know more about the stuff at hand than the average guy and being approachable and ive in general. You can't really deny the ive part of my activity within the community either so please don't think I'm not aware of that.
I'm arguing from the power/rules/respect standpoint in this conversation because I truly think that titles don't matter and should never ever be a reason to behave differently in front of a certain person than usual.

even though you worked hard to deserve that title?

^important part of that sentence

now I'm cringing at the fact that I even tried applying to GMT lmfao

Ephemeral wrote: 6y2w72

if anything, it makes me wonder why you stopped there, or if you're already a mod somewhere else, why aren't you giving them all of your attention instead?

I do give a lot of attention to the places I do moderate, but still, thanks for slapping some sense into me to not think about power. Reminds me of the time when someone spam p***/music ads into that place. I and another mod took care of that in like a few minutes.

Endaris wrote: 2c1i17

Personally I even volunteered specifically to take care of forum instead of chat mostly (like Brian) and pointed out how some sectons of the forum are literally unmoderated but looks like I can't be trusted with power 8)

but with that, yeah Endaris does have a point. There are WAY too many unmoderated places in osu, especially language-specific channels/subforums like how there are literally no Thai s and someone named jameyou001 wreaked havoc in irc for dozens of times last year. We reported him, guess what, you can't read Thai, so didn't do anything. New players were driven away and regulars(like me) failed miserably to chase him away with counter-trolling without the help of a mod. #thai stayed like that for months, either deserted or full of real cancer (not the joking kind of cancer like OT) until people slowly came back.

I don't want power, I want to help, and if this happens again, I will really lose respect for s.

Ephemeral wrote: 6y2w72

as far as respect goes: nobody "deserves" your respect. this does not however make your respect a commodity that people must be aware of attaining, because in reality, who gives a fuck about what you think?

No one is really obliged to give a fuck about anyone or anything - we're not discussing the tangibility someone's respect here, but you are right about respect not being a commodity mods should strive to obtain like some kind of currency. We're discussing what the consequences are of being a shit mod vs being a good mod.

That still doesn't change the fact that many people want the job, which clashes with your initial statement that barely anyone applies for the position.

then let me rephrase that since i obviously didn't clarify myself enough. when i said that nobody wanted to do that shit job, i meant that nobody wants to do what mods actually do. when people think of OT mods, they usually think of somebody who just fucks around with the rest of them. i'm not saying that they're not allowed to have fun, but they mustn't forget about the clerical work. makes sense?

Well, we should blame whoever is responsible for hiring mods, then. I'm not going to start respecting people like Stefan for reasons that go beyond his moderation skills, but I'm not going to blame him in this situation IF he indeed didn't apply for modding OT. Instead, I'm going to put that argument towards his superiors who don't give a shit about proper moderation of this place.

i guess it makes sense for you not to respect the mods here since you mostly frequent this forum, and they have done a bad job at moderating it. i don't like how they treated this place, but i've seen Flanster modding the #osu chat and i think he does a good job at it, whereas Stefan seems pretty respectable in the modding community.

Oh, no, I was just responding to your lines. Enetro is a fucking dickwad so I don't really take him seriously. Your statements are the point of our discussion here.

sorry, i usually try to follow the OP in discussion threads no matter where the conversation leads.

then let me rephrase that since i obviously didn't clarify myself enough. when i said that nobody wanted to do that shit job, i meant that nobody wants to do what mods actually do. when people think of OT mods, they usually think of somebody who just fucks around with the rest of them. i'm not saying that they're not allowed to have fun, but they mustn't forget about the clerical work. makes sense?

Absolutely. I like when you clarify your points, even though you don't have to.

i guess it makes sense for you not to respect the mods here since you mostly frequent this forum, and they have done a bad job at moderating it. i don't like how they treated this place, but i've seen Flanster modding the #osu chat and i think he does a good job at it, whereas Stefan seems pretty respectable in the modding community.

If they are respected within their community, power to them, I suppose. Every person reaps what they sow.

sorry, i usually try to follow the OP in discussion threads no matter where the conversation leads.

My apologies, then.

The mildly fun thing is how there is more than 1 BAT-member that got sentenced to a lifetime in jail later on.
It is of utmost importance to notice that the deciding factor for istrative positions (not only in osu!) is not qualification but being in the correct place at the correct time. That is how these people became BAT- in the first place or how Ephemeral became Lord Farquaad.
In a parallel university I might have not dropped osu! after my initial installation to return after 5 years and I'd be a famoose GMT/mapper/whatever now because staff wasn't crowded with cool, german-speaking people yet, causing the entrance requirements to be lower (not to mention that I was a lot more concerned about appearing as impolite or stupid back then).

Endaris wrote: 2c1i17

In a parallel university

http://parallel-university.org/

Oh god that typo xD

Alight, let's go over some generalised statements in this thread:

"Moderating is a shit job"

No, not really. If that were the case, then 75% of people wouldn't want to do it. I have no experience with higher istrative levels, but moderating a simple forums like OT is not difficult at all. People like to mod because they like to move up in the "power hierarchy" so to speak, but because they view it that way, it's why most people aren't good mods.

"golden rule"

The golden rule is to treat others as you want to be treated. Not respect everyone regardless. I don't expect to be treated with respect if I'm doing a shit job at something, rather I'd expect other people to call me out on my behaviour so I can change it.


Regarding my experiences with mods, I've never found any mods, besides one or two like Brian that I like. I tend to find that the job of moderating attracts a certain type of person, and that person doesn't treating modding like a responsibility - which it is - but rather treats is like being "the boss", and this really is a cancerous attitude. As I've stated before, moderating, for the most part, isn't a difficult job. However what is very important above all that the develops the right philosophy for moderating. Since we've been talking about Biblical concepts, let my bring out another one:

"But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves." -Luke 22:26

And from my experience, most s cannot do the simply task of doing an objective evaluation of how to moderate to most benefit the community without inserting their ego. That is as it is, I don't respect most mods, and I hold them to a higher standard than I do for most people.

It's definitely not as black and white as you make it out to be, Birdman.

The respect mods get from moderating comes from more than just doing a good job, but it is in a way tied to it.
To explain, you stated that only a certain type of people are fit to rule, which is completely correct, however, you have not explained correctly WHAT makes the right type of person. The right guy is the guy who has experience, charisma and the proper personality to do the job. Someone who can act with authority without squashing the ones below him with his delusions of grandeur.
With the right type of person comes the right amount of respect, automatically.

Eph said how respect is not something that anyone should look to attain like some form of currency, but it IS a fairly good indicator of how good you fit into the professional environment, regardless of the position.

With that being said, my original point was that you shouldn't rule out the "being a boss" as some kind of negative, because a healthy amount of authority is most definitely needed to rule the rats and people alike.

it's a shit job. most people (99.9% or something like that probably, you could calculate it exactly by taking staff+gmt and posing it against the rest of the playerbase) don't want to do it, or they'd be doing it already. you feel responsible for other people's enjoyment, and yet you're acutely aware that you essentially get to decide who participates and who doesn't, and doing that with a clear head in some circumstances is very difficult, and never fun.

i wont deny that there's more than a small portion of being in the right place at the right time as far as becoming a is concerned, but the good news about that sort of stuff is if you're not blisteringly fucking stupid, you can generally see where the right place is, and figure out when the right time is. i saw a huge need for people skilled in discussing things and being proactive with issues 8 years ago when i started playing, so i got off my ass and started getting involved. easy as shit. if you're not doing this, you're not fit for the position.

call it sycophantry or w/e you like, but it's just being smart as far as i'm concerned.

it's pretty shitty to lowkey hint at the "cool, mostly german staff" as being a product of a certain someone's preference when in fact all of the people who are indeed the "cool, mostly german staff" work their fuckin asses off to make sure you dudes have content to play.

it's all the same with people, unfortunately. covet what you don't have, and pin what others do have on circumstances that are beyond their control to make yourself feel better about how empty your life is

they take time out of their day to keep us all in line and they dont even get paid, why would you not have respect for them


inb4 tae comments about how i "made OT super shitty, you dont deserve to be here" like she has before

roshan117 wrote: 483d5j

they take time out of their day to keep us all in line and they dont even get paid, why would you not have respect for them

apparently they didnt do a good enough job since youre still here

Please, let's try to get back on-topic here.

roshan117 wrote: 483d5j

inb4 tae comments about how i "made OT super shitty, you dont deserve to be here" like he has before

I don't think (s)he should say that, imo it's 1v2m i guess...

roshan117 wrote: 483d5j

they take time out of their day to keep us all in line and they dont even get paid, why would you not have respect for them

you know what? ...ok. this is just pure bias against Flanster for locking my threads. but mod-bashing? why should that not be a thing? imo if mods don't like they can just ignore it. :kms:

I guess i'll respect mods (good ones of course) from now on.

roshan117 wrote: 483d5j

inb4 tae comments about how i "made OT super shitty, you dont deserve to be here" like she has before

Not quite. You've improved from how you used to be, so you've moved down the hitlist a considerable amount.

Aomi wrote: 2j3e53

roshan117 wrote: 483d5j

they take time out of their day to keep us all in line and they dont even get paid, why would you not have respect for them

apparently they didnt do a good enough job since youre still here

quit confoosin me wit te pronounz

roshan please keep this on-topic

@b1rd: Saying that 75% wanting to moderate somehow proves that moderating is a good job is completely wrong.

Consider this;

- people might only be thinking that they want to moderate, but when they start moderating they quit pretty soon cause it wasn't what they thought it would be.

- people are drawn to the role as a not for the works sake, but for the sake of the increased status that comes with being a mod.

- people might like power, but trust me that most people do not like work.

Conclusion:
Pertaining to mod-work, what people think they want seems to only be mildly correlated with what they actually want. The reasons being: Most people only have a desire for things that come with being a mod rather than a desire for actual mod work + wrong conceptions of what mod work is actually like (tedious, unpaid)

What I don't understand is why you're taking everything with so much salt, Eph. I said it already and I will say it again: I'm not disappointed or surprised at all by the outcome of the applications. My expectation from the app was that Pawsu gets in and if that wouldn't have happened I would have laughed about those apps really hard.
I'm generally happy with my situation (aside from the fact that I don't have enough time to spend on mapping to make satisfying progress without ditching a lot of my other activities in osu!).

Please notice that the hint on the cool german staff people who ARE doing a lot was merely pointing towards "the ratio of supply and demand for german GMTs is on a level that will make it much harder to get into GMT because you're not adding someone because you really need a for that neglected language channel".
I know that most of them are listed as QAT and not bound to actually doing moderation work but I know for a fact that some of them DO it actively and also that #german is generally well monitored and it's easier to get someone for a critical case who can read the language and has the power to act
I don't get from where you got the interpretation that I am suspecting any kind of nation-favoritism in staff selection. Like, what the actual fuck. Read my posts again, this stupid assumption comes from you, not from me. I'm going to let it because I can see how certain people would drop such shitty hints and you probably got confronted with such people more than once but know that I'm not going to accept if you keep putting words into my mouth.

Last but not least, it should be noted (and even be obvious?) that I brought the example with banned BATs to portray the change of requirements over time (same context as the cool german people above). It was definitely not to cry about missed opportunities, what the fuck, Eph, how much bleach did you have to drink to only assume the worst things from people?

Time to silence myself for two weeks.
(Until Aug 2 11:49A HST)

the bitter draught of experience is far more potent than bleach unfortunately

DJ Enetro wrote: 1t3h

Time to silence myself for two weeks.

Maybe pose a question that doesn't have an "it depends"-answer next time? That would be a step in the right direction.

Is it ok to punch someone in the face? Bla bla bla



This thread could make for an interesting topic, but with an opening post like that you just set it up for disaster, as you can see it unfolding on the first page.

I was about to make a funny comment on this but then I realised that it is too sad to make fun of.
Hang in, gull, the sun is shining for you too.

This thread is now a thread about the Roman heating system - hypocaust.

Hypocausts were heating systems that distributed the heat from an underground fire throughout a space beneath the floor. The heat was absorbed by the floor and then radiated into the room above. The effect on thermal comfort must have been similar to that of a modern-day hot water or electricity-based radiant floor heating system. The Roman hypocaust was characterised by its under-floor flue ages, created by small pillars bearing the floor's paving slabs. Sometimes, the heat was also fed through cavities in the walls before escaping from the building, thereby warming up the walls, too.

The Romans were not the first to develop a heating system in which the heat from a fire was fed under the floor from one side of a room to the other. The Chinese kang and dikang, the Korean ondol and the Afghan tawakhaneh were based on similar principles and date back to even earlier times. What's more, the Romans probably learned the technology from the Greeks. Nevertheless, it was the Romans who developed the hypocaust into a more sophisticated heating system, especially in their public bath houses, which were built all across Europe and around the Mediterranean.



The picture above is the picture of a defective hypocaust, as it lacks a floor above to heat and as you can see, it also lacks proper walls.
This type of shoddy building is generally attributed to the Brits, who largely lived in feces and never figured out what a brain is used for.

Ephemeral wrote: 6y2w72

it's a shit job. most people (99.9% or something like that probably, you could calculate it exactly by taking staff+gmt and posing it against the rest of the playerbase) don't want to do it, or they'd be doing it already. you feel responsible for other people's enjoyment, and yet you're acutely aware that you essentially get to decide who participates and who doesn't, and doing that with a clear head in some circumstances is very difficult, and never fun.

i wont deny that there's more than a small portion of being in the right place at the right time as far as becoming a is concerned, but the good news about that sort of stuff is if you're not blisteringly fucking stupid, you can generally see where the right place is, and figure out when the right time is. i saw a huge need for people skilled in discussing things and being proactive with issues 8 years ago when i started playing, so i got off my ass and started getting involved. easy as shit. if you're not doing this, you're not fit for the position.

call it sycophantry or w/e you like, but it's just being smart as far as i'm concerned.

it's pretty shitty to lowkey hint at the "cool, mostly german staff" as being a product of a certain someone's preference when in fact all of the people who are indeed the "cool, mostly german staff" work their fuckin asses off to make sure you dudes have content to play.

it's all the same with people, unfortunately. covet what you don't have, and pin what others do have on circumstances that are beyond their control to make yourself feel better about how empty your life is

Okay. I have no idea what you can say your first statement when everything else you have said contradicts that. You said that you denied 85% of people applying to be GMT. And that's only the people who applied, a lot of people wouldn't bother because they wouldn't think they had a chance. If you want to see how many people are willing to actually be a mod, ask a random person if they want to be, and I guarantee that a large percentage will say yes.

Is a mod responsible for other people's enjoyment? No. A mod is responsible for creating an environment where people can enjoy themselves without any unnecessary troubles affecting people's enjoyment. Such as spamming or harassment. And if we compare a forum to real life social situations: how many times do you need to get the police involved because someone is bothering you? Rarely ever. Of course you might respond that an anonymous forum doesn't have the same consequences for bad behaviour as real life, and that's true to an extent, but the fact remains that in general people don't stay where they're not wanted, and if they are wanted then there's no reason for a to take action. It's self evident that a community self-regulates, and forceful intervention by a is rarely necessary.

And why don't I respect mods? Isn't is obvious just by your conduct in this thread? As I have already mentioned, a mod's job is that of a servant, not as a ruler, but that's not how most mods act. Here you are, acting as if yourself and your buddies are God's gift to mankind. I have dealt with mods a lot, and the large majority have an elitist attitude; they're not interested in helping the s. They will go banning and silencing at a whim, yet actually getting help from one is like getting water out of a stone. As you have mentioned, the way to become a mod is not through virtue but through sycophancy. Drawing some parallels between mods and politicians, it's often said that politicians don't have any particular talent for ruling, but for keeping and holding office, and there is truth in that when it comes to mods as well.

Railey2 wrote: 2p535p

@b1rd: Saying that 75% wanting to moderate somehow proves that moderating is a good job is completely wrong.

Consider this;

- people might only be thinking that they want to moderate, but when they start moderating they quit pretty soon cause it wasn't what they thought it would be.

- people are drawn to the role as a not for the works sake, but for the sake of the increased status that comes with being a mod.

- people might like power, but trust me that most people do not like work.

Conclusion:
Pertaining to mod-work, what people think they want seems to only be mildly correlated with what they actually want. The reasons being: Most people only have a desire for things that come with being a mod rather than a desire for actual mod work + wrong conceptions of what mod work is actually like (tedious, unpaid)

And as I've already mentioned, being a mod isn't a whole lot of work. And it might be said that the increased status and pleasure from wielding authority is a lot more common a motivator than a genuine desire to better a community. It's also apparent that nepotism - not technically the right word but you know what I mean - is just as important - if not more - than merit. Because the people who decides whether someone is a mod or not aren't the people whom the mod servers, i.e. the base, but people above in the hierarchy who are actually in the same group as the mods. It's like cops deciding if other cops have abused their power. It's apparent form many real-world examples that that doesn't work out very well.

Sometimes I wonder why applied while knowing I am not active enough through osu! to even be considered. I didn't even make any community related events/things. I guess it's that try even if you don't think so mentality, but that also makes me wonder if I just wasted their time and shouldn't have bothered.

Aurani wrote: 5y4b4

This thread is now a thread about the Roman heating system - hypocaust.

Was this a precursor to the holocaust - the German heating system?

That's exactly why I like you, Bird.

It makes me wonder, though, what ARE the requirements for becoming a mod of this godforsaken place? I've only seen what vaguely reads as "only the best are selected", but best at what? Drinking piss out of a jar dangling from the tooth of a bear? Do you have to ask someone directly what the criteria are, or do you just apply and take a shot in the dark?

Based on what made me be 100% sure that Pawsu would GMT apps:

Pawsu was #1 duplicate finder in feature requests but half of the found dupes never got moved
Pawsu is very helpful, frequently helping people in #help and Help
Pawsu is very active
Pawsu is nice, humble and actively trying to expand her knowledge

I mean she got added to the Team instead, but that was her own wish and it also fit the best based on her occupations.
The main thing that convinced me was really the activity, huge interests in helping s, big knowledge and the absolute role model behaviour in of language and interaction overall. Especially the last thing sets her apart from other active s that I personally consider as most valuable community like Deimos and others.
She was already doing the job of a better than most without being one.

How do you explain other mods, then? I'm sure there are more than one who act like complete children (immaturity should be the number 1 red flag in apps), have absolutely disgraceful behaviour when it comes to helping others, etc.

The one good guy I can and will ALWAYS is deadbeat. He's a shining beacon when it comes to being a rolemodel, as he possesses both kindness and knows how to hold a certain degree of authority at the same time, all while finding enough time to help others whenever he can.
I'm guessing that's why he's in such a high position.

Aurani wrote: 5y4b4

That's exactly why I like you, Bird.

It makes me wonder, though, what ARE the requirements for becoming a mod of this godforsaken place? I've only seen what vaguely reads as "only the best are selected", but best at what? Drinking piss out of a jar dangling from the tooth of a bear? Do you have to ask someone directly what the criteria are, or do you just apply and take a shot in the dark?

I actually asked Stefan about this one time (about how he became GMT), and he told me that you become GMT by various people in the community recommending that you become GMT

┳┻|
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┳┻|_∧ ,
┻┳|･ω･)ﾁﾗｯ
┳┻|⊂ﾉ
┻┳|Ｊ

Foxtrot wrote: 5i3s6g

my point here is, everyone deserves respect on the same level. some mods deserve more respect depending on their experiences and history

🙏

roshan117 wrote: 483d5j

and he told me that you become GMT by various people in the community recommending that you become GMT

You win osu! by getting the popular vote whether it's becoming GMT, ranking a map, or being a player everybody cares about.

B1rd, everything you said about "nepotism" and the like is completely irrelevant to what i wrote to call you out on your incorrect claim.

So I am going to say it again, please try staying on topic this time.



You say that 75% wanting to be mods proves that mod work isn't hard.
My counter argument was that many people only want to be mods for status and power, not because they like mod-work. Of the 75%, which is already an unrealistically high number, you can not expect everyone to like mod-work.

Mod work is easy in the sense that it doesn't require a shitload of expertise or an IQ of 140+ to be done successfully.

But it is indeed a "shit job" because it's just not that rewarding. Mod work is..
1) tedious (try reading through 10 pages of shit-threads every day to see if someone broke rules, try dealing with biased reports and PMs every day. Gets old really fast)
2) unpaid
3) Aggravating, when dealing with asshats. Many people aren't exactly grateful for what you do, so there is a lot of hostility to go around

This is why is not easy work to most people. You might like the side effects of being a mod, leading to a "oh yeah being a mod is totally sweet"-feeling, but the work itself? Nah.

But what am I trying to convince you for, right? Just take Eph's word for it. He clearly knows better than you.

I'm going to clarify my points in my previous argument.

1) modding isn't necessarily tedious. It's not just that people may be drawn to the position for the authority, but one may like to stay in the position because they like to exercise authority over others. People who want to mod out of an altruistic desire to help their community are rarer than the first sort by nature of the fact that they don't have as strong an incentive to seek out moderating positions, since they don't desire to wield power for its own sake.

2) mods don't need to even do the job they're supposed to do because there is no pressure on them from the people whom they affect. No mod actually reads through dozens of pages to check if someone broke the rules. I have had many experiences with mods and they are very unwilling to help anyone else with problems. They're only able to the people above them, who have no incentive to make sure their subordinates are always doing a good job - unless they get really out of hand.

I hope you're talking about this specific forum and not in general, Bird, as I definitely can't agree with your last line, if you're talking about mods in general.

B1rd this is all good but it isnt even tangentially related to your claim that people wanting to be mods somehow proves that mod work isn't shit work. In fact, 2) seems to be contrary to that claim.

Maybe stop shapeshifting your arguments until they become unrecognizeable? You went from "75% want to mod, therefore mod work is nice and enjoyable" to who knows what you want to say with the post above. I do have a lot to say about your post, but doing so would lead to an argument that never goes anywhere because i will be damned if you can just straight-forwardly reply to my actual criticism of your initial post.

the package deal with b1rd is: antiestablishmentarianism and wildly vacillating opinions on worldview facilitated purely on baseless rapport or "obvious" observations

i thought everybody knew this already

You ain't a saint either, mate.

i don't pretend to be, that's the difference

pls no fighting

but fights are important

some fucking ancient greek philosoph said something like "the war is the father of all things"
meaning that you don't get to move on without clashing in some way - every conflict is a possible breeding ground to change the world to something better

i'll mess up your pots and pans so bad you'll never find a ladle again

Hi! im new here and i genuinely have no idea thefuck is happening. will it get worser as I come here more often?

Ryoid wrote: 261b5

Hi! im new here and i genuinely have no idea thefuck is happening. will it get worser as I come here more often?

hhhhhhhhhhhhh

Railey2 wrote: 2p535p

hhhhhhhhhhhhh

a7a kos omak

Ephemeral wrote: 6y2w72

i don't pretend to be, that's the difference

I don't think Bird is thinking of himself highly either. Sure, he's arrogant at times, but he can be reasoned with.

Aurani wrote: 5y4b4

Ephemeral wrote: 6y2w72

i don't pretend to be, that's the difference

I don't think Bird is thinking of himself highly either. Sure, he's arrogant at times, but he can be reasoned with.

Sometimes.

I really don't understand why so many people think Bird doesn't listen to reason. Every single time I discussed things with him, we came to a conclusion together and ended it there, just like it is with Railey.

Really?
Time and time again I got the expression that B1rd doesn't accept compromises and thinks in absolute values and stuff. He would also disrespect opinions of people who don't match his and prefer being offensive over coming to some sort of conclusion .
The fact that Railey and B1rd wouldn't come to a conclusion of how "the free market can solve this problem!" and you used them both as examples could mean that maybe B1rd isn't the open-minded person but you are.

I'm definitely trying to remain as neutral as possible in every discussion, but if Bird thinks in absolute values, how would we ever reach any kind of conclusion, if I rarely share Bird's view on a matter?

Maybe people are approaching him in the wrong way? I'd very much like to know.

Ephemeral wrote: 6y2w72

the package deal with b1rd is: antiestablishmentarianism and wildly vacillating opinions on worldview facilitated purely on baseless rapport or "obvious" observations

i thought everybody knew this already

What a coincidence that with your group being the target of my criticism, you would speak out so strongly against me and try to denigrate my worldview without actually addressing my arguments. Tell me, which one of my opinion has changed wildly in the recent past? Which one of my observations is wrong? Seems that almost every mod I talk to - and this is especially true the higher up in the hierarchy they get - do nothing except validate my arguments, and it's only the lower tier or ex-mods that will even attempt to be reconciliatory.

Endaris wrote: 2c1i17

Really?
Time and time again I got the expression that B1rd doesn't accept compromises and thinks in absolute values and stuff. He would also disrespect opinions of people who don't match his and prefer being offensive over coming to some sort of conclusion .
The fact that Railey and B1rd wouldn't come to a conclusion of how "the free market can solve this problem!" and you used them both as examples could mean that maybe B1rd isn't the open-minded person but you are.

It's really no intention of mine to offend you with my opinion, if my opinions are offending you, that's your problem. There's nothing wrong with having absolute values, arguing isn't about coming to a compromise, it's about finding the truth. And no I don't respect opinions, I only respect people. Respecting opinions is a silly idea in the first place.

Railey2 wrote: 2p535p

B1rd this is all good but it isnt even tangentially related to your claim that people wanting to be mods somehow proves that mod work isn't shit work. In fact, 2) seems to be contrary to that claim.

Maybe stop shapeshifting your arguments until they become unrecognizeable? You went from "75% want to mod, therefore mod work is nice and enjoyable" to who knows what you want to say with the post above. I do have a lot to say about your post, but doing so would lead to an argument that never goes anywhere because i will be damned if you can just straight-forwardly reply to my actual criticism of your initial post.

You can't seem to understand that that one statement wasn't causal, and you can't seem to understand that all of the paragraphs I've written - in the original comment included - my claim that most people would mod if given the opportunity, and directly rebut your claim that modding is a tedious job so that most people wouldn't want to do it. I don't know how to make it any clearer that that.

official ITT3 bois

Blitzfrog wrote: 4q35t

official ITT3 bois

Actually b1rd, everything that was ever written s the claim that 75% of people that the free market would also enjoy mod work, which is obvious because 75% want to become mods.

The free market is a lie. We're the slaves of our reptilian overlords.

Aurani wrote: 5y4b4

The free market is a lie. We're the slaves of our reptilian overlords.

The feline overlords want a word with you

Doesn't intentioning the primary use makes it go different ways?
Verificationism?

B1rd wrote: 144h19

Ephemeral wrote: 6y2w72

the package deal with b1rd is: antiestablishmentarianism and wildly vacillating opinions on worldview facilitated purely on baseless rapport or "obvious" observations

i thought everybody knew this already

What a coincidence that with your group being the target of my criticism, you would speak out so strongly against me and try to denigrate my worldview without actually addressing my arguments. Tell me, which one of my opinion has changed wildly in the recent past? Which one of my observations is wrong? Seems that almost every mod I talk to - and this is especially true the higher up in the hierarchy they get - do nothing except validate my arguments, and it's only the lower tier or ex-mods that will even attempt to be reconciliatory.

all of your opinions have changed
all of your observations are wrong

you just attempted to your argument with personal experience again

etc et al

i'm not actually serious fwiw. i dont expect anything from OT but baseless rapport or confirmation bias observations, it isn't exactly meant to be a paragon of civil or otherwise meaningful discussion. and i'm not saying this to demean the place or anyone in it - it's just like going to a mcdonalds and expecting elite cuisine

just do you, man. i'm not particularly concerned with what anyone thinks for the most part, not out of some draconic desire to stomp out their opinions, but i'm getting old and 16 years on the internet kind of inures you to this sorta stuff

though just to make a point, if your observations were hypothetically correct, we wouldn't even be having this exchange. i would've exercised my nepotism-accrued imaginary power and wiped your discourse from the board. there's nothing stopping me but me after all, this is OT.

What place on this darned page do you consider any better at discussing proper topics than OT, though? I'm not saying this because I want to spite you, but because I legitimately want to know what your viewpoint is, as you specifically mentioned OT, and not Osu. That leads me to believe that you indeed think there is a better place than OT for discussing serious matters outside the game's scope.
In my personal experience, the other parts of this forum are inhabited by more immature and utterly disgusting individuals who wouldn't be able to lead an intellectual conversation if one came to their house and slapped them across the face with a fresh turd.

Aurani wrote: 5y4b4

I really don't understand why so many people think Bird doesn't listen to reason. Every single time I discussed things with him, we came to a conclusion together and ended it there, just like it is with Railey.

Maybe you got lucky? I've seen a lot of terrible escalation to irrationality in both my and other people's arguments with B1rd, so I can't say he doesn't have that as a fairly serious problem. There's a reason why I felt so sad about how our conversations ended up devolving recently.

As I wrote in that same post, maybe people are approaching him in the wrong way. I've seen a lot of guys here trying to push their own agenda against Bird by poisoning the well, which he reacts to in a volatile manner, reducing the chances of any successful outcome. That's just my assumption.

Ephemeral wrote: 6y2w72

all of your observations are wrong

you just attempted to your argument with personal experience again

etc et al

i'm not actually serious fwiw. i dont expect anything from OT but baseless rapport or confirmation bias observations, it isn't exactly meant to be a paragon of civil or otherwise meaningful discussion. and i'm not saying this to demean the place or anyone in it - it's just like going to a mcdonalds and expecting elite cuisine

just do you, man. i'm not particularly concerned with what anyone thinks for the most part, not out of some draconic desire to stomp out their opinions, but i'm getting old and 16 years on the internet kind of inures you to this sorta stuff

though just to make a point, if your observations were hypothetically correct, we wouldn't even be having this exchange. i would've exercised my nepotism-accrued imaginary power and wiped your discourse from the board. there's nothing stopping me but me after all, this is OT.

I don't have any reason to assume you would care enough to ban me. It would certainly be more trouble than it's worth anyway. Don't try to trivialise my argument by making out that I have some sort of persecution complex. I don't have that, I just don't think most mods are very good. Though, I don't doubt that you wouldn't have any ethical qualms about taking action against me the moment it was expedient. That time when my Score V2 thread, which I took hours to formulate, was deleted comes to mind.

Your generalised statements are just wrong, which is why I asked you for specific examples, because I knew you wouldn't be able to provide any. If you're going to bother replying to me in the first place you may as well make an attempt at some sort of productive dialogue. You say that all my opinions change all the time, I'm wondering what you're talking about, though obviously my opinions do change from time to time, my opinion on moderating has stayed relatively consistent throughout all of the time that I've been here. And what is wrong with ing my arguments with personal experience, and which of my observations have been wrong? It's not like you know much about me. Your claims are just fluff.

DaddyCoolVipper wrote: p3m4x

Maybe you got lucky? I've seen a lot of terrible escalation to irrationality in both my and other people's arguments with B1rd, so I can't say he doesn't have that as a fairly serious problem. There's a reason why I felt so sad about how our conversations ended up devolving recently.

And I think you're irrational. Are you glad that I don't go around calling you that all the time? It's this type of thing, along with your bad argumentation methods that is the reason you're tedious to discuss anything with.

Aurani wrote: 5y4b4

As I wrote in that same post, maybe people are approaching him in the wrong way. I've seen a lot of guys here trying to push their own agenda against Bird by poisoning the well, which he reacts to in a volatile manner, reducing the chances of any successful outcome. That's just my assumption.

Might also be related to your preferred topics of conversation, though. Some subjects are more suited to mostly-neutral, emotionally disconnected discussion than others.